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Myself: First of all, if I had a DeadJournal account, I wouldn't be anonymous, so don't label me coward.

Secondly...what makes you think that the bible was written solely by God? Don't get me wrong here--I am deeply spiritual and, while not particularly Christian, fall generally into that category--but the bible was written in the hands of men. The bible says that women should submit to men, too--do you believe that's natural? Times change, and people progress. Homesexuals do not choose to be homosexual, and by laying these anti-sodomy laws we are stripping them of their rights.

Change happens, [poster]. The bible HAS been wrong in the past, and to think that there is no chance it is again is more than faith--it's blind faith, even ignorance. We are supposed to believe, yes, but we're also supposed to think for ourselves. God isn't a rulebook. He's love. He's not going to restrict that love for so many of his human creations just because a bunch of jackasses in seats of power think it's unnatural.

Oh, and I hope you respond to this. You only seem to put a word in when one of you friends defends you...I don't know about the actual case, but it looks like you're hiding. If you're going to blurt something out like that, you sure as hell better be ready to defend it. Personal opinions are just fine, but unfounded ones just piss me off.

I really hope you think about this.

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Poster's Friend: Hey asshole, that's the beauty of a personal journal! She's allowed to say anything she wants in her own fricking DJ, and she DOESN'T HAVE TO DEFEND IT! If you don't like what she has to say, DON'T VISIT HER DAMNED JOURNAL ANYMORE!! Contrary to popular belief, this is [poster's] journal, not a fricking discussion forum. She can believe whatever she wants, write whatever she wants, and do whatever she wants, and she doesn't have to justify ANYTHING! So go sit on a broom handle and spin for awhile.

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Myself: First of all, don't call me an asshole. I didn't swear at [poster]. I didn't personally attack her, and I didn't insult her. You just lowered the bar of conversation majorly, but I'm going to be mature and ignore the low blow you dealt.

Secondly, what the hell are you talking about? This is NOT just her personal journal. A personal journal is something not everyone on the internet has access to. A DeadJournal has a place where you can comment. If she doesn't want to have her opinions questioned, she shouldn't post them somewhere that has the option readily available. And I know she can do whatever she wants--I didn't say she couldn't even once. But the way she put up her opinion of homosexuals was bigoted. If she had put up a reasonable explanation for her beliefs in the first place, I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with it. But the fact is, our views are different, and if she can say her opinion, so can I. Next time you decide to blow up in someone's face, you should really try to sound like you have a valid point first.

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Poster: I laughed throughout this entire comment. You know why? Because you're so silly. I'm sorry you're so pissed off. That's not my fault. So if the bible is wrong then that means God is wrong, doesn't it? And if God is wrong, that means he's not God. Duh.

And if homosexuals don't choose it, then they should seek help. Thanks for your comments. ^^ Appreciate your opinion, even if you are going overboard in thinking that you are the only one in the world that has the right of opinion. And my opinions are not unfounded... actually that makes no sense. What am I suppose to found my opinion on? Yours? Wait a second, then that wouldn't be my opinion would it?

I didn't put up posts and things for an argument. If you reply to me again, then so be it, but I won't counter because it's not worth my time. That's not hiding, that's being smart.

Have a nice day.

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Myself: Have you ever had a gay friend, [poster]? I have several, and they're all wonderful, normal people. They don't feel there's something wrong with them--they're just interested in guys instead of girls. I'll say it again, too--God did not send the bible down from heaven. He had people write it. I know it's a hugely controversial issue about whether or not everything in there is the truth, but I think it's just stupid to accept everything in it without questioning it! Gay people do NOT have something wrong with them. There is nothing importantly different about them, and there is nothing socially or spiritually unacceptable about them. I can't say how much thought you've given to the subject, so don't act aloof if I'm wrong, but just in case I'm not--please take the time to think about this without bias. Think about what actual religious relevance homosexuality actually has. Think about why it is a sin, not just that it is. I didn't think it was right until I did this, and it has done me a world of good.

Oh, and I don't appreciate you calling me silly, either. I'm fervent about my beliefs, and you just called them silly. That stung me, and I'm making an effort not to let my emotions taint this response--you're right, I am pissed off. Like I said, I believe this strongly.

And one last thing: you say something controversial in a public place, and you WILL get an argument. That should have been obvious.

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Random 1: Kk, Im not gonna really get into this but..

- I don't believe in god, and all this religion talk kinda bothers me in a way Oo, and also doesn't so you ppl can wrestle that out. (got nothing against religious ppl)

- You said Clinton was better than Bush...Well Clintion bombed my country (*former Yugoslavia) so yeah I don't like him at all, and Bush isn't too bright is he? Lol, so I don't really like the two of them..Meh.. (I don't live in America so...not really sure how they used to/are running the country)

- I think it's rude how some people treat gays... i was walking in the shopping mall with a friend of mine, and there was a gay couple, around 16 years old... These two women infront of us started to whisper, pointed at them, then FOLLOWED them! To me personally thats plain rude, and they shouldnt be treated like that at all, they're normal people who happen to be attracted to the same sex. That's all.. But it's up to you to believe in what you like, and I'm not holding anything agianst you or anyone who believes in something different about them, but it's just..Mean of people I suppose...

- Erm don't hurt me, I'm only thirteen, I know quite a lot bout things that go around me (yes i actually pay attention to news, some political things...etc) but I don't know everything, so, was just stating my opinion.. -_-

- Oh btw! [poster] have fun ^^ Have a safe trip, etc And good luck !!

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Poster: I'm sorry if talking about religion and God and all that is uncomfortable for you, but not much I can do about that. =/
I don't like to get into politics, it's too much of a headache. All I know is that Bush isn't that bad... he's not perfect, he's just a man. That's what people have to remember.
I don't think people should be rude to gay people either. But I also don't think people should get so offended when there is someone that states "I don't like the fact that they're gay." that didn't mean they hate or despise the person, just the fact that they're gay. I don't like what adulterers do either, but I don't hate them. I don't like knowing of people that have sex before marriage, I think that's wrong, but I don't hate people that do it. I don't hate anyone. Hate wastes too much energy. Anger wastes too much energy. Resentful hateful, mean feelings are a waste of time and wear me and anyone down. So I do my best to stay away from things that will cause me to feel them.
And that, is when someone is contentious towards me. I avoid the fight to avoid the feelings. Because with those feelings I feel bad and I don't want to. Who does?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Poster (in response to my comment): How old do you think I am? Do you think that I am just a child that decided one day that I would say "Hey, this is what I believe" without even giving it thought or dug into it to see if that's how it really is? Do you think that I'm really that ignorant and stupid that I wouldn't take the time to really find out if something was true or not? I do not need to know a million gay people to know that the person themselves are good people. I have gay neighbors and they're wonderful men. I don't dispute that. I never said that the gay person is a horrible person. I said and I will say it again and again until you understand what it is I said and stop thinking I said something else... I said that I don't accept what they DO. Not, who they are. I accept them as children of God. I accept them and human beings with choices to do as they will. I DO NOT accept that they choose to be gay. And yes, it is a choice. If it was not, then it is something like an illness. No one chooses to be ill do they? People choose to do wrong, and it is my believe and my knowledge that it is wrong.

For you, it is not. And you believe it strongly that it is not. I think that's fine for you and it's great that you took the time to find that out for yourself. That's wonderful for you.

However, for me- it is truth that I know that it is not right, it is not healthy, it is not sanctioned by God it is not instituted by God but by the advasary. This is not just something I know for myself. This is something.. that I KNOW. Period. Not just for myself, but that it is. No dispute. You can not tell me what I know and don't know. This is something that I know. And that's all there is to it.

If you say it has nothing to do with religion, and that there is no such thing as right and wrong, there is no such thing as God or the Devil, or that God doesn't care. It's normal, it's human it's something God gave his children. No, what God gave was the normal feelings of love and affection for one another, when we lust after those that we should not lust after, be it a man lusting after another mans wife, or a woman lusting after another womans husband, or a man lusting after a man and a woman lusting after a woman... it's not feelings from God and it is the Devil that makes you believe that it is acceptable and right, for he is the one that wants to confuse you and tell you that sin is not wrong. There is no sin, sin is fine. Sin is fun. That is what he says, and that is not from God.

And the reason I called you silly is because you are taking so much offense in my words when I never intended to offend you. That is silly. I admit I was hurt and insulted as well, but I have overcome that. I am no longer insulted by you or hurt by your words. I think you have a very good point, that I should think about it and investigate it and question. I have. I HAVE. And I KNOW that what I believe is TRUE. I KNOW IT. And YOU can not dispute that. You can not say that I don't know something. Because I DO. I'm not just feverent about things, I'm not just saying it because it's something I think. It's something I KNOW.

And about the argument thing going on... I never said I wasn't expecting it. But one can have a discussion with out getting 'pissed off' as you have.

But if you are going to continue to let your temper rise and let your emotions get in the way of listening to my side of the spectrum instead of just trying to make me listen to you, then I will no longer reply to you, because it is not worth my time. I have listend to you. I have talked to my family (who believe as I do, who know what I know) and have thought, prayed and studied about it. And if you say you've done the same, then you won't let your anger and hate for what I believe to make YOU biast against me.
If you cannot stop and listen and think a moment, then so be it. Thank you for giving me a reason to really talk to people about all of this. Thank you for making my faith stronger, though you didn't intend to.

Thank you and God bless.

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"Fate Bless": Perhaps you merely need to explain your wording. This entire issue began because someone you know heard things about America that dissuaded them from moving here. I believe you said it was silly to let one simple problem with an area dissuade you from living there. That was followed by this, and I quote:

"Besides, if you really want to get into a debate about where's a better place to live, you better not get me started on Canada. It's a beautiful country sure, but there are some new laws and things they have now-a-days that just makes me sick. SICK SICK SICK. And yes, it all has to do with gay marriage and all that. And yes- I AM AGAINST IT! You don't like my opinion? Well then you can just turn right around and go somewhere else, for I will NEVER accept homosexuality as right or normal or 'another life style'. It's wrong okay? W-R-O-N-G, Wrong!"

The original issue was not whether you hated gay people, at least not for me--it is that you are in direct opposition of their MARRIAGE, which, as you state numerous times, is "wrong". It doesn't matter if you personally like them or not--the point is that you support the witholding of an American right from a facet of the population. That's all.

And please, do not try to argue that a religious belief is empirically true. The reason they are called "beliefs" is because they are full of dogmas. Religious beliefs and logical laws are to be kept separate.

--Fate Bless

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Myself: [poster]--we are seriously not on the same page here. I understand that you honestly believe this, and now I understand that you've come to this belief through your own will, mostly. Just remember that a vast amount of "faithful" Christians (or any other religion) simply accept what is said in the bible. I think this is wrong--while the bible is a wonderful guideline and testimony, it shouldn't be a rulebook. We are supposed to question it just as we question our faith (which in turn makes our faith stronger). Now, I personally cannot see what is wrong with homosexuality. It doesn't hurt anyone, like the other sins--no one dies, no one adulterates, no one does any harm according to the other rules. The only thing that really counts against it is the sole fact that the bible says it's bad. It doesn't say why. You can call it unnatural, but the only reason you say that is because homosexual intercourse won't procreate. Sex is an act of love, according to the bible...and tell me, what exactly is wrong with love between two people of the same gender? We're the same species, aren't we? To nab a concept/quote from one of my dear friends, genitals should not decide who you can fall in love with.

And I know you're wrong about homosexuality being a choice. If you can say you KNOW, than I can KNOW just as definitely. I've prayed, I've researched, I've put a lot of time and effort into this realization. See, homosexuals don't choose their sexual preference any more than you do--God decides it for them, just as he decides physical features and talents. You know what's interesting? A lot of priests are gay. Rather than go against their religion, rather than go against a core part of their being, they submerse themselves in celibacy. I'm not saying that in any denunciation of priests whatsoever, but it IS true. It's a fact of life, [poster]. People are gay, and it's not sin. I believe just as strongly in my beliefs as you do, and knowing that I came to this decision despite my upbringing and religion has only made me more sure of it.

I just hope this debate gave you something to think about.

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Poster's Brother: hi i'm [posters] brother and i wanted to make a few comments on his subject. you state that homosexuality hurts no one. yet disease is spread by homosexuality, aids can be contracted by two monogomous homosexuals, the word monogomous homosexual is an oxymoron,it's like saying military intelligence or jumbo shrimp. not only are they hurting others by spreading disease they are breaking down the most sacred part of life the family unit. how can family exist if people arent pro creating. can a child learn certain things from their father that only their mother could teach them. homosexuality defies and destroys the morales of family.god sent us here to learn and to multiply and replenish the earth. to multiply and replenish the earth is a sacred god given commandment and blessing. saying there is nothing wrong with being gay is saying that god puts no value on family or pro creation. homosexuality destroys families, and families have children and children are the future. if there is no family is there a future?

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"Fate Bless": I hate to question your religion, but I have two simple words for you:

Six Billion.

I don't think we'll go extinct just yet. In fact, I think we'll have to worry about starvation first because we're reproducing too quickly.

And sexually transmitted diseases are just that: sexually transmitted. Meaning that a sexual couple, any sexual couple, can transfer them between each other.

To say that "monogamous homosexual" is an oxymoron is perhaps the most crude and foolish stereotype that has been put into this conversation. Kudos.

But maybe I can just have an open mind about this because I'm in a religion that doesn't believe that the number of children I have determines my position in Heaven.

--Fate Bless

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Poster: (This is [poster])
Lol! Okay, what kind of crap comment is that to make? "I'm in a religion that doesn't believe that the number of children I have determines my position in Heaven." You don't know jack about my religion obviously since you think that! Give me a break. Having children does not determine any such thing. My parents only had 3 children. Me and my two brothers. Does that mean they are going to have a lesser 'position' as you say? Heck no. The reason a lot of Mormon families have a lot of children is because it is taught to us to multiply and replenish the earth. We are not over populated. Been to area's of Idaho, Wyoming, or Nevada lately (to name a few)? There's no one there in certain places. And no crops either. There is plenty of space to expand and live so don't talk to me about over population. If you want to know what determines your 'postistion' it's your rightousness. And if you think you have the right to judge others because you are so much better than them, then I feel sorry for you. I don't pretend to be the judge over you, so why should you in turn judge me or my beliefs when you don't know anything about either one? Assumtions are not knowledge.

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"Fate Bless": Then I've made my point.

I don't know enough about Mormonism to make an assertion.
And you don't know enough about homosexuality to make an assertion.

"Babs": ((Man, I post alot)) Anyway, over-poulation is impossible. Besides, even if the world does get over-populated we could always live on the moon. (It's possible!) By then we would be able to. And just because Julie has a different religion than you is no reason to jump on of why it is wrong. Don't you people get it? If somebody believe something why don't you just shut up and take it? It's no that hard. I'm not even a mormon , I'm a Catholic. I have different beliefs but does that meann I'm gonna spring and point out how it is so wrong? No! We all have differnt religions. That's like busting into a church and saying, "You're all wrong!" (even though there are less people). So please Fate, just shut up and if it makes you feel better, ignore [poster's] beliefs Ok? It would make our live MUCH easier than sitting here and arguing with you. . The world would spin much faster if evryone just minded their own buisness. Good, glad I cleared that up. (hopefully)
~Babs

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"Fate Bless": I never asked you to sit here and argue with me. I openly admit that it is no trouble for me at all to post these things, it doesn't detract from my day in the slightest. If you feel that you are obligated to reply to me, don't be. I don't care, and I wouldn't want to waste your valuable time that could be spent making worthy assertions about the nature of the universe. It really is no difference to me.

That said...no, actually, overpopulation is not only possible, it is a fact. It's happening right now--to humans, to animals. Our population is steadily growing because more people are born each year than die. In many places there are more people than jobs, more people than healthcare can cover, more people than can comfortably be fed. It's a simple mathematical probability that with us to continue reproducing without dying, that we will become globally overpopulated in every place that supports human life.

Which, I'm sorry to point out, does not include the moon.

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"Babs": *sigh* Why can't we use the moon? WE HAVE THE WHOLE FLIPPIN' UNIVERSE!!!! The day we run out of space to put our kids, I'll stick my head down the toilet. I swear...
~Babs
P.S. I didn't WANT to argue with you. I wanted to point out that evryone has a right to their opinon. And I'm not closed-minded!

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Poster: Apparently Babs, anyone with a different opinion than this persons is either closed or narrow minded. You see, we're not entitld to have opinions, or if we are, we're supposed to keep them to ourselves and not share them. For we have no right, cuz we're ignorant biased narrow minded morons.
Makes you just feel all warm and fuzzy inside huh? lol.

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"Babs": Sorry. *waddles away* Just got a... little... carried away. *blushes*
~Babs

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Poster: *snugs* It's okay Babs, just count to ten when you feel you temper rising. Breath in, breath out. Or just be like me and say "Uh, okay... sure." and move on. ^^

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"Babs": Thanks for the advice I'm getting a LiveJournal next week so I can blow up my feelings there. I just... don't 'agree' with people sometimes. Ah, well, I'm going on a trip to the Planetarium with meh best friend tomorrow. That should cool me off. Man, there goes my energy. Where are the Oreos?
~Babs
P.S. I eat when I'm stressed. I'm underweight so I need cookies.

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Myself: I don't know what sex education you got, but there is obviously some flaw in it. Sexually transmitted diseases aren't limited to homosexual couples by any means! They're transmitted just as readily by a man and woman as by two men or two women.

Oh, and I agree with Fate. Your comment about "monogomous homosexual" being an oxymoron is biased, descriminative and extremely rude. I'm not gay, and I'm offended. Two homosexuals can just as readily maintain a monogomous relationship. When they can find a priest who knows enough to agree to it, they marry. It's NOT uncommon. And I didn't say that God puts no value on families and procreation. I didn't even imply it! I just said it wasn't essential to have children to be a loving family. My friend Jodi is married but infertile. Does that mean she and her husband aren't a real family? Other couples simply choose not to have children, too--it's a matter of descretion. Oh, and what gave you the idea that a gay married couple couldn't adopt? And what gave you the idea that two men or two women can't raise a child? Saying that is not only insulting gay parents, but single parents as well. Your comments are descriminating against any family without a mom or dad now, and that's just plain ignorant.

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Random 2: We're not ignorant you're just WRONG!!!

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Myself:Why, thank you for that compelling and valid point. Thank God there are open-minded people like you to convince us sinners to repent.

...Geez.

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Poster or Poster's Brother: i never said sexually transmitted diseases are limited to homosexuals. actually sexually transmitted diseases are more readily transmitted between two men as they have the possibility of exchanging fluids as two women dont. not only exchanging fluids but exchanging those fluids anally. diseases are transmitted through the blood stream having anl sex has a higher propensity of tearing skin tissue and the anal cavity is less clean than the vaginal cavity. how many gay people have you met that have sex with the same partner? ask any homosexual ,monogomous homosexual is a word made up by the gay community to try and make their promiscuios behavior sound acceptable. to accept homosexuality as an acceptable behavior is saying that you disagree with family and procreation. if every one were gay there wouldnt be any kids to adopt. a gay married couple shouldnt be able to adopt. it's immorale. there are certain things that a child can only learn from his father or mother . if a child has two fathers and not a mother that child is missing out on valuble blessings that only having a mother and father can bring. i commend single parents that have been divorced or widowed and have the challenge of raising a chid as a single parent,they are true heroes but that child will forever miss out on the lessons that they could have learned if they had both parents. the downfall of society directly correlates with the downfall of the family unit. the family unit consisting of a mother and a father raising a child. homosexuality contributes to the brekup or down fall of the family unit. i never said two men/women cant raise a chid but there are certain things that only a father/mother can teach their child. by having two mothers/fathers your depriving a child of the blessings a father and a mother can bring into a chids life. if god wanted man to raise a child by himself or with another man women would have only been used as the means to have a baby or vice versa man would only be usful as a sperm donor. as i stated before i feel that single parents are heroes in todays society but to the comment that i have insulted gay parents,good. they need to be insulted what they are doing is wrong in every way shape and form. before you go off telling me i dont know anything about family look back on your life think of all the things your parents taught you,now take one of those parents out of the picture. would you be the same person you are today. i doubt it.

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Myself: You still seem to be under the impression that all homosexuals are sex-driven HIV cases incapable of rational behavior. There ARE monogomous homosexual couples; I know it for a fact! And to your implication that a huge deal of gays are sexually promiscuous--what about the rest of our country? It's not just homosexuals with the wrong idea about sex, love.

Another thing you've got wrong about what I'm saying is that you seem to think I'm saying we should ALL be homosexual. I don't think that at all--God made people heterosexual too, after all. Therefore, we don't have to worry about our population dying out entirely either. You also say that to accept homosexuality is to say I disagree with family and procreation. That, in my opinion, is ridiculous. I'm merely pointing out that family doesn't have to center on procreation. It can, but it's not essential.

Oh, and of course I'd be a different person if I had a different parent. Anyone would. Your parents, no matter their gender, affect you--it has nothing to do with whether you have a mom and a dad, two dads, or two moms. Lessons you learn from your parents aren't neccesarily gender-segregated. They're based entirely on personality, and I know a girl raised by her dads who's a lot more centered than another raised by her mom and dad. You still haven't given any reason why homosexuality is wrong, I might add, other than the bible says that it's unnatural. Yes, STD's can be transmitted more effectively through homosexual intercourse, but it doesn't mean they are worse people for it. We get the same STD's too, after all.

:) (Smile) — Description
Myself: First of all, if I had a DeadJournal account, I wouldn't be anonymous, so don't label me coward.

Secondly...what makes you think that the bible was written solely by God? Don't get me wrong here--I am deeply spiritual and, while not particularly Christian, fall generally into that category--but the bible was written in the hands of men. The bible says that women should submit to men, too--do you believe that's natural? Times change, and people progress. Homesexuals do not choose to be homosexual, and by laying these anti-sodomy laws we are stripping them of their rights.

Change happens, [poster]. The bible HAS been wrong in the past, and to think that there is no chance it is again is more than faith--it's blind faith, even ignorance. We are supposed to believe, yes, but we're also supposed to think for ourselves. God isn't a rulebook. He's love. He's not going to restrict that love for so many of his human creations just because a bunch of jackasses in seats of power think it's unnatural.

Oh, and I hope you respond to this. You only seem to put a word in when one of you friends defends you...I don't know about the actual case, but it looks like you're hiding. If you're going to blurt something out like that, you sure as hell better be ready to defend it. Personal opinions are just fine, but unfounded ones just piss me off.

I really hope you think about this.

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Poster's Friend: Hey asshole, that's the beauty of a personal journal! She's allowed to say anything she wants in her own fricking DJ, and she DOESN'T HAVE TO DEFEND IT! If you don't like what she has to say, DON'T VISIT HER DAMNED JOURNAL ANYMORE!! Contrary to popular belief, this is [poster's] journal, not a fricking discussion forum. She can believe whatever she wants, write whatever she wants, and do whatever she wants, and she doesn't have to justify ANYTHING! So go sit on a broom handle and spin for awhile.

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Myself: First of all, don't call me an asshole. I didn't swear at [poster]. I didn't personally attack her, and I didn't insult her. You just lowered the bar of conversation majorly, but I'm going to be mature and ignore the low blow you dealt.

Secondly, what the hell are you talking about? This is NOT just her personal journal. A personal journal is something not everyone on the internet has access to. A DeadJournal has a place where you can comment. If she doesn't want to have her opinions questioned, she shouldn't post them somewhere that has the option readily available. And I know she can do whatever she wants--I didn't say she couldn't even once. But the way she put up her opinion of homosexuals was bigoted. If she had put up a reasonable explanation for her beliefs in the first place, I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with it. But the fact is, our views are different, and if she can say her opinion, so can I. Next time you decide to blow up in someone's face, you should really try to sound like you have a valid point first.

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Poster: I laughed throughout this entire comment. You know why? Because you're so silly. I'm sorry you're so pissed off. That's not my fault. So if the bible is wrong then that means God is wrong, doesn't it? And if God is wrong, that means he's not God. Duh.

And if homosexuals don't choose it, then they should seek help. Thanks for your comments. ^^ Appreciate your opinion, even if you are going overboard in thinking that you are the only one in the world that has the right of opinion. And my opinions are not unfounded... actually that makes no sense. What am I suppose to found my opinion on? Yours? Wait a second, then that wouldn't be my opinion would it?

I didn't put up posts and things for an argument. If you reply to me again, then so be it, but I won't counter because it's not worth my time. That's not hiding, that's being smart.

Have a nice day.

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Myself: Have you ever had a gay friend, [poster]? I have several, and they're all wonderful, normal people. They don't feel there's something wrong with them--they're just interested in guys instead of girls. I'll say it again, too--God did not send the bible down from heaven. He had people write it. I know it's a hugely controversial issue about whether or not everything in there is the truth, but I think it's just stupid to accept everything in it without questioning it! Gay people do NOT have something wrong with them. There is nothing importantly different about them, and there is nothing socially or spiritually unacceptable about them. I can't say how much thought you've given to the subject, so don't act aloof if I'm wrong, but just in case I'm not--please take the time to think about this without bias. Think about what actual religious relevance homosexuality actually has. Think about why it is a sin, not just that it is. I didn't think it was right until I did this, and it has done me a world of good.

Oh, and I don't appreciate you calling me silly, either. I'm fervent about my beliefs, and you just called them silly. That stung me, and I'm making an effort not to let my emotions taint this response--you're right, I am pissed off. Like I said, I believe this strongly.

And one last thing: you say something controversial in a public place, and you WILL get an argument. That should have been obvious.

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Random 1: Kk, Im not gonna really get into this but..

- I don't believe in god, and all this religion talk kinda bothers me in a way Oo, and also doesn't so you ppl can wrestle that out. (got nothing against religious ppl)

- You said Clinton was better than Bush...Well Clintion bombed my country (*former Yugoslavia) so yeah I don't like him at all, and Bush isn't too bright is he? Lol, so I don't really like the two of them..Meh.. (I don't live in America so...not really sure how they used to/are running the country)

- I think it's rude how some people treat gays... i was walking in the shopping mall with a friend of mine, and there was a gay couple, around 16 years old... These two women infront of us started to whisper, pointed at them, then FOLLOWED them! To me personally thats plain rude, and they shouldnt be treated like that at all, they're normal people who happen to be attracted to the same sex. That's all.. But it's up to you to believe in what you like, and I'm not holding anything agianst you or anyone who believes in something different about them, but it's just..Mean of people I suppose...

- Erm don't hurt me, I'm only thirteen, I know quite a lot bout things that go around me (yes i actually pay attention to news, some political things...etc) but I don't know everything, so, was just stating my opinion.. -_-

- Oh btw! [poster] have fun ^^ Have a safe trip, etc And good luck !!

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Poster: I'm sorry if talking about religion and God and all that is uncomfortable for you, but not much I can do about that. =/
I don't like to get into politics, it's too much of a headache. All I know is that Bush isn't that bad... he's not perfect, he's just a man. That's what people have to remember.
I don't think people should be rude to gay people either. But I also don't think people should get so offended when there is someone that states "I don't like the fact that they're gay." that didn't mean they hate or despise the person, just the fact that they're gay. I don't like what adulterers do either, but I don't hate them. I don't like knowing of people that have sex before marriage, I think that's wrong, but I don't hate people that do it. I don't hate anyone. Hate wastes too much energy. Anger wastes too much energy. Resentful hateful, mean feelings are a waste of time and wear me and anyone down. So I do my best to stay away from things that will cause me to feel them.
And that, is when someone is contentious towards me. I avoid the fight to avoid the feelings. Because with those feelings I feel bad and I don't want to. Who does?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Poster (in response to my comment): How old do you think I am? Do you think that I am just a child that decided one day that I would say "Hey, this is what I believe" without even giving it thought or dug into it to see if that's how it really is? Do you think that I'm really that ignorant and stupid that I wouldn't take the time to really find out if something was true or not? I do not need to know a million gay people to know that the person themselves are good people. I have gay neighbors and they're wonderful men. I don't dispute that. I never said that the gay person is a horrible person. I said and I will say it again and again until you understand what it is I said and stop thinking I said something else... I said that I don't accept what they DO. Not, who they are. I accept them as children of God. I accept them and human beings with choices to do as they will. I DO NOT accept that they choose to be gay. And yes, it is a choice. If it was not, then it is something like an illness. No one chooses to be ill do they? People choose to do wrong, and it is my believe and my knowledge that it is wrong.

For you, it is not. And you believe it strongly that it is not. I think that's fine for you and it's great that you took the time to find that out for yourself. That's wonderful for you.

However, for me- it is truth that I know that it is not right, it is not healthy, it is not sanctioned by God it is not instituted by God but by the advasary. This is not just something I know for myself. This is something.. that I KNOW. Period. Not just for myself, but that it is. No dispute. You can not tell me what I know and don't know. This is something that I know. And that's all there is to it.

If you say it has nothing to do with religion, and that there is no such thing as right and wrong, there is no such thing as God or the Devil, or that God doesn't care. It's normal, it's human it's something God gave his children. No, what God gave was the normal feelings of love and affection for one another, when we lust after those that we should not lust after, be it a man lusting after another mans wife, or a woman lusting after another womans husband, or a man lusting after a man and a woman lusting after a woman... it's not feelings from God and it is the Devil that makes you believe that it is acceptable and right, for he is the one that wants to confuse you and tell you that sin is not wrong. There is no sin, sin is fine. Sin is fun. That is what he says, and that is not from God.

And the reason I called you silly is because you are taking so much offense in my words when I never intended to offend you. That is silly. I admit I was hurt and insulted as well, but I have overcome that. I am no longer insulted by you or hurt by your words. I think you have a very good point, that I should think about it and investigate it and question. I have. I HAVE. And I KNOW that what I believe is TRUE. I KNOW IT. And YOU can not dispute that. You can not say that I don't know something. Because I DO. I'm not just feverent about things, I'm not just saying it because it's something I think. It's something I KNOW.

And about the argument thing going on... I never said I wasn't expecting it. But one can have a discussion with out getting 'pissed off' as you have.

But if you are going to continue to let your temper rise and let your emotions get in the way of listening to my side of the spectrum instead of just trying to make me listen to you, then I will no longer reply to you, because it is not worth my time. I have listend to you. I have talked to my family (who believe as I do, who know what I know) and have thought, prayed and studied about it. And if you say you've done the same, then you won't let your anger and hate for what I believe to make YOU biast against me.
If you cannot stop and listen and think a moment, then so be it. Thank you for giving me a reason to really talk to people about all of this. Thank you for making my faith stronger, though you didn't intend to.

Thank you and God bless.

--

"Fate Bless": Perhaps you merely need to explain your wording. This entire issue began because someone you know heard things about America that dissuaded them from moving here. I believe you said it was silly to let one simple problem with an area dissuade you from living there. That was followed by this, and I quote:

"Besides, if you really want to get into a debate about where's a better place to live, you better not get me started on Canada. It's a beautiful country sure, but there are some new laws and things they have now-a-days that just makes me sick. SICK SICK SICK. And yes, it all has to do with gay marriage and all that. And yes- I AM AGAINST IT! You don't like my opinion? Well then you can just turn right around and go somewhere else, for I will NEVER accept homosexuality as right or normal or 'another life style'. It's wrong okay? W-R-O-N-G, Wrong!"

The original issue was not whether you hated gay people, at least not for me--it is that you are in direct opposition of their MARRIAGE, which, as you state numerous times, is "wrong". It doesn't matter if you personally like them or not--the point is that you support the witholding of an American right from a facet of the population. That's all.

And please, do not try to argue that a religious belief is empirically true. The reason they are called "beliefs" is because they are full of dogmas. Religious beliefs and logical laws are to be kept separate.

--Fate Bless

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Myself: [poster]--we are seriously not on the same page here. I understand that you honestly believe this, and now I understand that you've come to this belief through your own will, mostly. Just remember that a vast amount of "faithful" Christians (or any other religion) simply accept what is said in the bible. I think this is wrong--while the bible is a wonderful guideline and testimony, it shouldn't be a rulebook. We are supposed to question it just as we question our faith (which in turn makes our faith stronger). Now, I personally cannot see what is wrong with homosexuality. It doesn't hurt anyone, like the other sins--no one dies, no one adulterates, no one does any harm according to the other rules. The only thing that really counts against it is the sole fact that the bible says it's bad. It doesn't say why. You can call it unnatural, but the only reason you say that is because homosexual intercourse won't procreate. Sex is an act of love, according to the bible...and tell me, what exactly is wrong with love between two people of the same gender? We're the same species, aren't we? To nab a concept/quote from one of my dear friends, genitals should not decide who you can fall in love with.

And I know you're wrong about homosexuality being a choice. If you can say you KNOW, than I can KNOW just as definitely. I've prayed, I've researched, I've put a lot of time and effort into this realization. See, homosexuals don't choose their sexual preference any more than you do--God decides it for them, just as he decides physical features and talents. You know what's interesting? A lot of priests are gay. Rather than go against their religion, rather than go against a core part of their being, they submerse themselves in celibacy. I'm not saying that in any denunciation of priests whatsoever, but it IS true. It's a fact of life, [poster]. People are gay, and it's not sin. I believe just as strongly in my beliefs as you do, and knowing that I came to this decision despite my upbringing and religion has only made me more sure of it.

I just hope this debate gave you something to think about.

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Poster's Brother: hi i'm [posters] brother and i wanted to make a few comments on his subject. you state that homosexuality hurts no one. yet disease is spread by homosexuality, aids can be contracted by two monogomous homosexuals, the word monogomous homosexual is an oxymoron,it's like saying military intelligence or jumbo shrimp. not only are they hurting others by spreading disease they are breaking down the most sacred part of life the family unit. how can family exist if people arent pro creating. can a child learn certain things from their father that only their mother could teach them. homosexuality defies and destroys the morales of family.god sent us here to learn and to multiply and replenish the earth. to multiply and replenish the earth is a sacred god given commandment and blessing. saying there is nothing wrong with being gay is saying that god puts no value on family or pro creation. homosexuality destroys families, and families have children and children are the future. if there is no family is there a future?

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"Fate Bless": I hate to question your religion, but I have two simple words for you:

Six Billion.

I don't think we'll go extinct just yet. In fact, I think we'll have to worry about starvation first because we're reproducing too quickly.

And sexually transmitted diseases are just that: sexually transmitted. Meaning that a sexual couple, any sexual couple, can transfer them between each other.

To say that "monogamous homosexual" is an oxymoron is perhaps the most crude and foolish stereotype that has been put into this conversation. Kudos.

But maybe I can just have an open mind about this because I'm in a religion that doesn't believe that the number of children I have determines my position in Heaven.

--Fate Bless

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Poster: (This is [poster])
Lol! Okay, what kind of crap comment is that to make? "I'm in a religion that doesn't believe that the number of children I have determines my position in Heaven." You don't know jack about my religion obviously since you think that! Give me a break. Having children does not determine any such thing. My parents only had 3 children. Me and my two brothers. Does that mean they are going to have a lesser 'position' as you say? Heck no. The reason a lot of Mormon families have a lot of children is because it is taught to us to multiply and replenish the earth. We are not over populated. Been to area's of Idaho, Wyoming, or Nevada lately (to name a few)? There's no one there in certain places. And no crops either. There is plenty of space to expand and live so don't talk to me about over population. If you want to know what determines your 'postistion' it's your rightousness. And if you think you have the right to judge others because you are so much better than them, then I feel sorry for you. I don't pretend to be the judge over you, so why should you in turn judge me or my beliefs when you don't know anything about either one? Assumtions are not knowledge.

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"Fate Bless": Then I've made my point.

I don't know enough about Mormonism to make an assertion.
And you don't know enough about homosexuality to make an assertion.

"Babs": ((Man, I post alot)) Anyway, over-poulation is impossible. Besides, even if the world does get over-populated we could always live on the moon. (It's possible!) By then we would be able to. And just because Julie has a different religion than you is no reason to jump on of why it is wrong. Don't you people get it? If somebody believe something why don't you just shut up and take it? It's no that hard. I'm not even a mormon , I'm a Catholic. I have different beliefs but does that meann I'm gonna spring and point out how it is so wrong? No! We all have differnt religions. That's like busting into a church and saying, "You're all wrong!" (even though there are less people). So please Fate, just shut up and if it makes you feel better, ignore [poster's] beliefs Ok? It would make our live MUCH easier than sitting here and arguing with you. . The world would spin much faster if evryone just minded their own buisness. Good, glad I cleared that up. (hopefully)
~Babs

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"Fate Bless": I never asked you to sit here and argue with me. I openly admit that it is no trouble for me at all to post these things, it doesn't detract from my day in the slightest. If you feel that you are obligated to reply to me, don't be. I don't care, and I wouldn't want to waste your valuable time that could be spent making worthy assertions about the nature of the universe. It really is no difference to me.

That said...no, actually, overpopulation is not only possible, it is a fact. It's happening right now--to humans, to animals. Our population is steadily growing because more people are born each year than die. In many places there are more people than jobs, more people than healthcare can cover, more people than can comfortably be fed. It's a simple mathematical probability that with us to continue reproducing without dying, that we will become globally overpopulated in every place that supports human life.

Which, I'm sorry to point out, does not include the moon.

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"Babs": *sigh* Why can't we use the moon? WE HAVE THE WHOLE FLIPPIN' UNIVERSE!!!! The day we run out of space to put our kids, I'll stick my head down the toilet. I swear...
~Babs
P.S. I didn't WANT to argue with you. I wanted to point out that evryone has a right to their opinon. And I'm not closed-minded!

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Poster: Apparently Babs, anyone with a different opinion than this persons is either closed or narrow minded. You see, we're not entitld to have opinions, or if we are, we're supposed to keep them to ourselves and not share them. For we have no right, cuz we're ignorant biased narrow minded morons.
Makes you just feel all warm and fuzzy inside huh? lol.

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"Babs": Sorry. *waddles away* Just got a... little... carried away. *blushes*
~Babs

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Poster: *snugs* It's okay Babs, just count to ten when you feel you temper rising. Breath in, breath out. Or just be like me and say "Uh, okay... sure." and move on. ^^

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"Babs": Thanks for the advice I'm getting a LiveJournal next week so I can blow up my feelings there. I just... don't 'agree' with people sometimes. Ah, well, I'm going on a trip to the Planetarium with meh best friend tomorrow. That should cool me off. Man, there goes my energy. Where are the Oreos?
~Babs
P.S. I eat when I'm stressed. I'm underweight so I need cookies.

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Myself: I don't know what sex education you got, but there is obviously some flaw in it. Sexually transmitted diseases aren't limited to homosexual couples by any means! They're transmitted just as readily by a man and woman as by two men or two women.

Oh, and I agree with Fate. Your comment about "monogomous homosexual" being an oxymoron is biased, descriminative and extremely rude. I'm not gay, and I'm offended. Two homosexuals can just as readily maintain a monogomous relationship. When they can find a priest who knows enough to agree to it, they marry. It's NOT uncommon. And I didn't say that God puts no value on families and procreation. I didn't even imply it! I just said it wasn't essential to have children to be a loving family. My friend Jodi is married but infertile. Does that mean she and her husband aren't a real family? Other couples simply choose not to have children, too--it's a matter of descretion. Oh, and what gave you the idea that a gay married couple couldn't adopt? And what gave you the idea that two men or two women can't raise a child? Saying that is not only insulting gay parents, but single parents as well. Your comments are descriminating against any family without a mom or dad now, and that's just plain ignorant.

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Random 2: We're not ignorant you're just WRONG!!!

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Myself:Why, thank you for that compelling and valid point. Thank God there are open-minded people like you to convince us sinners to repent.

...Geez.

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Poster or Poster's Brother: i never said sexually transmitted diseases are limited to homosexuals. actually sexually transmitted diseases are more readily transmitted between two men as they have the possibility of exchanging fluids as two women dont. not only exchanging fluids but exchanging those fluids anally. diseases are transmitted through the blood stream having anl sex has a higher propensity of tearing skin tissue and the anal cavity is less clean than the vaginal cavity. how many gay people have you met that have sex with the same partner? ask any homosexual ,monogomous homosexual is a word made up by the gay community to try and make their promiscuios behavior sound acceptable. to accept homosexuality as an acceptable behavior is saying that you disagree with family and procreation. if every one were gay there wouldnt be any kids to adopt. a gay married couple shouldnt be able to adopt. it's immorale. there are certain things that a child can only learn from his father or mother . if a child has two fathers and not a mother that child is missing out on valuble blessings that only having a mother and father can bring. i commend single parents that have been divorced or widowed and have the challenge of raising a chid as a single parent,they are true heroes but that child will forever miss out on the lessons that they could have learned if they had both parents. the downfall of society directly correlates with the downfall of the family unit. the family unit consisting of a mother and a father raising a child. homosexuality contributes to the brekup or down fall of the family unit. i never said two men/women cant raise a chid but there are certain things that only a father/mother can teach their child. by having two mothers/fathers your depriving a child of the blessings a father and a mother can bring into a chids life. if god wanted man to raise a child by himself or with another man women would have only been used as the means to have a baby or vice versa man would only be usful as a sperm donor. as i stated before i feel that single parents are heroes in todays society but to the comment that i have insulted gay parents,good. they need to be insulted what they are doing is wrong in every way shape and form. before you go off telling me i dont know anything about family look back on your life think of all the things your parents taught you,now take one of those parents out of the picture. would you be the same person you are today. i doubt it.

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Myself: You still seem to be under the impression that all homosexuals are sex-driven HIV cases incapable of rational behavior. There ARE monogomous homosexual couples; I know it for a fact! And to your implication that a huge deal of gays are sexually promiscuous--what about the rest of our country? It's not just homosexuals with the wrong idea about sex, love.

Another thing you've got wrong about what I'm saying is that you seem to think I'm saying we should ALL be homosexual. I don't think that at all--God made people heterosexual too, after all. Therefore, we don't have to worry about our population dying out entirely either. You also say that to accept homosexuality is to say I disagree with family and procreation. That, in my opinion, is ridiculous. I'm merely pointing out that family doesn't have to center on procreation. It can, but it's not essential.

Oh, and of course I'd be a different person if I had a different parent. Anyone would. Your parents, no matter their gender, affect you--it has nothing to do with whether you have a mom and a dad, two dads, or two moms. Lessons you learn from your parents aren't neccesarily gender-segregated. They're based entirely on personality, and I know a girl raised by her dads who's a lot more centered than another raised by her mom and dad. You still haven't given any reason why homosexuality is wrong, I might add, other than the bible says that it's unnatural. Yes, STD's can be transmitted more effectively through homosexual intercourse, but it doesn't mean they are worse people for it. We get the same STD's too, after all.