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CelestialSymphony — MEGALO - 17 [FINAL]
#undertale_game #floweyundertale #sans_undertale #frisk_undertale #omega_flowey_undertale
Published: 2015-11-13 19:47:20 +0000 UTC; Views: 27846; Favourites: 644; Downloads: 64
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we're gonna have a bad time.first - here
prev - here
undertale created by toby fox
note: that's it... for now. thanks for joining me on this wild ride.
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It's been a few years since I first read this.
Just wanted to say this still has really enjoyable and accurate characterization.
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I like the theme you were going for. Sans can't bring himself to ignore what's happening in front of him, even though he doesn't need to care in the LONG run because the suffering he's seeing RIGHT NOW.
Also, uh... that Gaster Blaster looks like it's wearing long eyelashes. Fancy!
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Assuming it's not Frisk fighting, the turn thing shouldn't work. So, maybe, possibly, Sans /might/ win
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Here is what happens next. Sans's blaster fires, not extremely effective because it does 30 damage a second and last about 3 second. Omega Flowey has over 1000 hp and that is no way Sans has that kind of damage output in 1 turn. Flowey's turn. Creates spear of bullets around Sans. Sans dies. (Seriously am I the only person who believes that that move exists specifically to fight Sans.)
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erm. well. he could just teleport out. *cof*
Also, it's not IMPOSSIBLE for him to do 1,000 damage in one turn. Due to the fact that Flowey is a large, immovable target and all of Sans' attacks are continuous AND poisonous, it's very well possible that a few blasters could kill him. It's not that his Blaster's do 30 damage per second, it's that they do a string of continuous 1 damage hits, as well as his bone attacks. As long as they're touching you, you're getting hurt. There is no immunity to his attacks. Also, it doesn't matter that Omega Flowey has oodles of defense, due to the fact his attacks only hit 1 damage. According to the game mechanics, you can't break down 1 any farther, if that were the case I totally would have gotten Tem armor for the Sans battle. So, the battle would have gone more like this:
Flowey: *attacks Sans*
Sans: *annoyingly dodges*
Flowey: *rages*
That move wasn't created specifically to fight Sans, it was created to kill a soul that has been weakened down to 1 HP, that way they cannot escape from him. While, yes, Sans DOES have 1 HP, he also has the power to teleport. He could just simply teleport out of the field. BEFORE you tell me he can't teleport in battle, he LITERALLY does that during his turn in the genocide battle. (second half, when the attacks are changing he's teleporting. he also teleports during the last attack)
Excuse the rants of a giant fangirl.
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Sans can't remember timelines and Flowey can't load files.
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LOADing and RESETting are two different things. While the author makes it clear that, yes, Sans does not remember Flowey from previous timelines, the author also makes it clear Flowey had RESET. Undertale itself makes it clear that Sans remembers events that transpire in the same timeline, we know this because he sometimes acknowledges the player LOADs. Most noticeably in Genocide, but there of course are few Easter eggs. However, the game never makes it clear that Sans remembers anything after a RESET. It seems that his memories are erased along with everyone else's, he never acknowledges that he remembers you.
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Allow me to clarify. I know this. I meant as in if someone came and saw this comment thread in a month they know that Sans can't remember. There are many people who believe he can remember timelines even though he can't. In genocide he is only guessing how many times you died. Which is why he sometimes gets it wrong and eventually gives up. What I meant by Flowey is that he can't load a save in the middle of the fight to give himself an advantage. Sorry for the confusion.
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Well. I mean, why couldn't he? It's not like fighting Sans makes a rule that he's not allowed to LOAD a file. In fact, that may be the winning factor for him, several hits from the Omega Flowey fight are caused by the unexpected LOADing. Sans only has 1 HP, so all he has to do is get a little lucky.
On another note, it's not that he was guessing how many times you had died in Genocide, he actually knew. When he was pretending not to, he was rubbing the fact the player had died so many times in a row to him, "the easiest enemy," already.
Death 9 "hmm. that expression... that's the expression of someone who's died seven times in a row. nope, wait, that's definitely nine, sorry. or was it ten?"
Death 10 "hmm. that expression... that's the expression of someone who's died ten times in a row. hey, congrats! the big one-oh! lets invite all your friends over for a big shindig. we can have pie,
and hot dogs, and... hmmm... wait. something's not right. you don't have any friends."
Death 9 is the only time he "forgets" how many times the player died, probably because there isn't really anything clever to say about the number 9. And the reason Sans "gives up" on counting is because Toby couldn't program a bunch of different text lines for each time the player dies.
Death 11 "hmm. that expression... that's the expression of someone who's died eleven times in a row. well, give or take. there's a nuance to this stuff. don't think i'll be able to count very well from here. count for me, ok? we'll start from 12."
nu·ance
noun
1. a subtle difference in or shade of meaning, expression, or sound.
What Sans is saying is that fighting the player is becoming repetitive. It's not that he's giving up, but more that it's blurring together and it's getting harder for him to remember how many times he's even fought you to begin with.
Excuse the rantings of a giant fangirl xD
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What makes you think he can remember during loads. If he could remember he would never lose. He could Change his patterns to compensate for your strengths and weaknesses. Sans is an average guy. His only advantage is known there is a bigger picture. Because of this he figures it out as he goes. But how could he know that saving and loading are thing? Developer was to lazy to come up with new terms only Sans used. + that would have been confusing for the player. Or maybe Flowey told him on the way to warn Asgore. Or how about this. After Undyne the Undying Sans basically went. "Welp, no way I'm gonna too that." And went home, but ed up his time line detector and noticed that there was a suspiciously large amount of timeline movement that corresponded remake ably well with the fight he just witnessed. From there you just connect the dots and take an educated guess. When Frisk shows up in various states of frustration he figures he's onto something. Notice he doesn't even hint at your abilities until the second fight. When you first meet him he just talks vague philosophy an tries to guilt trip you.
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See, I was hoping you'd ask this. There's actually two reasons. First being because game-wise if it changed every single time you LOADed, it would be practically impossible to beat. But there is proof that Sans remembers the LOADs, and it's in his battle. During the second half of his battle, there are randomly generated patterns, the attack in which he's teleporting. Jacksepticeye dubbed this attack "random shit," and I honestly do agree because it has no true pattern. Sans' battle is the ONLY BATTLE TO CHANGE. The only other battle that changes is Omega Flowey, and that's because it's entirely randomly generated. This is proof that he's using the LOADs to his advantage, albeit not very well.
Secondly, Sans didn't really want to win the fight in the first place. He knew that eventually he was going to lose, that the player wasn't going to stop until they killed him. "i know i can't beat you. one of your turns... you're just gonna kill me." It's a well known fact that Sans is depressed. Not because of the player but because of Flowey. Fine, he can't remember the RESETs. Yeah. I get that. But, he knows that RESETs and timelines are a thing that's going on. He'd realize eventually that he's living through them, that somehow there's an anomaly RESETting the world. He'd probably have nightmares about previous timelines. But, even if he doesn't, he'd still know that he'd be going through these RESETs. He'd start to know when the timeline would end and a knew one would begin, even though he couldn't remember the old one. It'd get tiring. Sans gave up a long time before the player fell into the underground.
"you can't understand how this feels. knowing that one day, without any warning... it's all going to be reset. look. i gave up trying to go back a long time ago. and getting to the surface doesn't really appeal anymore either. cause even if we do... we'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it all, right? to be blunt... it makes it kind of hard to give it my all."
^when your entire claim is supported in one quote.^
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"He'd probably have nightmares about previous timelines." Why does everybody think this is a thing, to my knowledge there is no in game evidence to support it. Why does he change, "News Flash" everybody changes parts of their attacks. Sans is just the person who changes the most. Not good enough here's a alternate theory. Just about every major character reports some amount of deja vu. Most people just ignore it or vaguely comment on it. generally these reported flashes happen in areas you play once in between resets could you imagine how strong the deja vu with in this fight is. And if you know the deja vu means something, or at least might mean something, then you can act on it.
Sans doesn't want to win, OF COURSE HE WANTS TO WIN! THATS THE PLAN! THAT'S THE POINT! HE'S PUTTING HIS ALL INTO THIS FINAL FIGHT BECAUSE HE THINKS REPETITION IS THE ONLY THING THAT CAN STOP YOU! KILLING YOU UNTIL YOU GIVE UP IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN WIN AND HE KNOWS IT! THE QUOTE YOU USED IS FROM THE "END" OF THE FIGHT WHEN HE RELIZES THE PLAN ISN'T GOING TO WORK AND DECIDES TO SHIFT STRATAGIES! HELL, WHY WOULDN'T HE POUR HIS ALL INTO THIS FIGHT! HE DOESN'T KNOW THAT HE'S DEALING WITH TWO DIFFERENT TIME TRAVELERS! HE PROBABLY THINKS IT'S ALL YOU AND EVEN BLAMES YOU FOR IT DURING THE FIGHT. "our reports showed a massive anomaly in the spacetime contimuum...(talking about the anomaly)...heh heh heh that's your fault isn't it?" I never understood the interpretation that Sans was unhappy fighting, revenge against the person he thinks RUINED HIS LIFE! WHO WOULDN'T WANT THAT!
Sorry for yelling. No hard feelings. Here's a emoticon of a ninja stealing a taco that I find silly.
I personally interpreted that move differently form you. When I saw the changing move I saw it as more of a "This goes on for a while." After a time wouldn't the fight just sort of blur together. you only catch bits and pieces of the center bit. Suddenly you realize that your surrounded by blasters, jumping bones, standing still through blues, or whatever else is going on at the moment.
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We know that if he remembered the RESETs he would have nightmares. No way around it. If you saw your brother get killed over and over, had to kill a murderous flower, had to relive the same days until you went nearly insane, wouldn't you? Now. In this argument he DOESN'T remember the resets. That's fine and all. I didn't say he would have nightmares, I said he might. He knows about the alternate timelines, he knows the anomaly isn't doing this out of the 'good of his heart,' and he most likely suspects that the timelines going on have not all been exactly good. He's lived previously in these timelines, so it's probable that he knows what happened in them subconsciously. Your brain runs on it's subconscious mind when it's asleep, meaning yes, he could have nightmares about the previous timelines.
No other battle changes besides Sans'. The only way it does is if WE do something different. EX: If we heal a few times more, we get to see more of Mettaton EX's dance battle than we had prior. Or if we die in the middle of Undyne the Undying's fight and we survive longer, we get to see more of it that way. The attacks always follow the same exact pattern in every fight. There is no randomly generated attack in any fight besides the entirety of Omega Flowey's.
Saying that he didn't want to win was a poor choice. What I meant was, he knew he couldn't win. He knew because he knew that the player would keep coming back again and again until they finally won. So he didn't try his hardest. He didn't take full advantage of his knowledge of the LOADs like he could have. He didn't use his full power. He just didn't try.
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What I meant was that everyone has attacks that change. You will always encounter forget in exactly the same spot, yet he won't always lead with the leaping. Many of the bullets that are produced in attacks won't fly the same ways, often in attacks that don't care where the soul is in the bullet box. Everyone has changing attacks, Sans's are just the most extreme.
Sans cannot remember the resets or loads. This theory comes form the same place as the sans lives after you kill him theory, and Sans "ability" to make shit hover with his blue attack. People wanting to make a great character even greats. The truth is that this community can't get enough of Sans. Not that he doesn't deserve the praise he gets, he just gets so much attention that other characters are forced out to give him more time. He's not the best fighter that's Undyne's thing, he's can't remember resets/loads that's flowey's thing. He put's his all into this fight because there is no reason for him not to, him not giving it his all means he's even more powerful than we see in game which just isn't right, and if he really wasn't going to try then why doesn't he just lead with the "special attack". He can't do that thing were he makes stuff hover that's not how blue is ever shown to work, it's a gravity shift nothing more. If you want to keep someone in place use Undyne. Sans cannot have survived his death scene for three reasons. 1. It completely ruins the emotional; daht scene itself that makes people want him to not be dead. 2. Toby Fox wouldn't have wanted reason one, so it is more likely to be an oversight than anything else. 3. I didn't bother to test this but I'm pretty sure of you go into the code you'll find that Asgore and Flowey don't count as kills either. I'm going to go fact check that when I'm done writing this. The guy with the lowest stats in the game should not be able to go up against people with the highest stats and win.
My personal theory is that Sans draws his power from his Perseverance rather than Determination. This makes him only as powerful as his opponent is offensively. It also explains why he becomes more powerful as the fight goes on. He himself said after his first attack he wonders why people don't lead with their strangest attacks implying that that was strongest attack when we see attacks that are just as and even more powerful later. That's because at time of casting it was his strongest. As the fight goes on you begin the present a steadily larger threat to sans making him more powerful. That being said like Undyne's determination Sans's Perseverance has its limits. He pushed it as far as he could but in the end the stronger prevailed.
I also noticed that you attacked my weaker theory but didn't acknowledge the stronger Deja vu theory.
Despite all this I think we have reached a stalemate here. Neither of us will be able to convince the other that they are correct and though I'm sure we could bring more arguments and evidence to the table I doubt there are any left that could make an actual difference. So I suggest we agree to disagree. Been fun, I'm out.
(Unless you make a counter argument that I just have to respond to.)
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I think the only way I can get prove to you that Sans' battle is the only one that changes is to tie you to a chair, tape your mouth shut, and play an entire Genocide playthrough of Undertale in front of you, dying several times to each boss purposefully until you realize that the patterns are the same. But, I digress. It doesn't matter if Sans remembers the LOADs anyways. It'd actually probably be better if he didn't and here's why: Most deaths from Omega Flowey are from the unexpected LOADing. The player isn't expecting their soul to move and the onscreen attacks to jump around. If Sans doesn't remember LOADs, then he'd simply forget everything that had transpired after said LOAD. He wouldn't forget EVERYTHING, of course. He'd still know what he was doing, he'd still remember all the events leading up to the LOAD, and he'd still know he was fighting Omega Flowey. The best part is that all of Omega Flowey's LOADs, except for File 3, are used during attacks, meaning that Sans would do the exact same thing, completely unaffected by a LOAD. I personally think him remembering the LOADs would hinder him more than him forgetting them.
Now. I just. You're. *sighs* Look. Firstly, if you're implying Sans would lose to Undyne in a fight you've got some serious issues. All of Undyne's attacks are range-based and Sans is the dodgemaster. Secondly, I never said Sans wanted to lose the fight, I said he knew he couldn't win, and that's why he had given up long before it had started. Thirdly, Sans' soul is the color of Patience, not Perseverance. Fourthly, there's a theory that Gaster had injected Sans with DT when he was a kid and that's why he bleeds. FIFTHLY AND FINALLY, the reason I didn't comment on your deja vu theory is because it's not a theory. It's just a fact. SOME characters are self aware and experience deja vu.
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Let me try one more time to get you to understand what I'm saying. Claiming that Sans remembers because Random Shit is the same as saying Asgore remembers because sometimes his eyes will flash Blue, Orange, Blue- and sometimes Orange, Orange, Orange. Doing attacks in the same order is the exception rather than the rule. The only people that do it are the bosses and 2-3 mini bosses, and all of them have randomly generated attacks. Sans is the most extreme. For Undyne it's deciding weather the spear will spawn left, right, or center. For Sans it's will he spawn blasters or bones. they are the same thing, but one is more extreme.
You then proceed to talk about Flowey vs Sans for a bit and I can't say I entirely get what your point is. You talk about it like Sans remembering would significantly help him, then say "I personally think him remembering the LOADs would hinder him more than him forgetting them." Implying it would be bad.
Second Paragraph Responses:
"Firstly, if you're implying Sans would lose to Undyne in a fight you've got some serious issues. All of Undyne's attacks are range-based and Sans is the dodgemaster."
-I have no idea why you think I implied this. All I said was that Sans has limits. Undyne pushed her power as far as it would go and still lost. Sans did the same.
"I never said Sans wanted to lose the fight, I said he knew he couldn't win, and that's why he had given up long before it had started."
-I am done arguing on this.
'Thirdly, Sans' soul is the color of Patience, not Perseverance."
-Why? he demonstrates both during the fight + integrity. I think you might be talking about that thing were all traits tie to a character but really? Wouldn't it make more sense for Papyrus to be Kindness? Integrity (roughly) means honesty. That doesn't sound like a guy who calls himself the "GREAT" PAPYRUS. Wouldn't Undyne be a better Justice than feaking Mettaton?
"Fourthly, there's a theory that Gaster had injected Sans with DT when he was a kid"
-We'll through that onto the pile of shit Gaster supposedly did, right next to discovered the Save File and Created Flowey. Not to say that this theory has no merit, just Gaster has done so much shit at this point the phrase "because Gaster did it." should always be taken with a grain of salt. It that's your theory I can't stop you.
"and that's why he bleeds."
-Confirmed to be ketchup by Toby Fox himself.
FIFTHLY AND FINALLY, the reason I didn't comment on your deja vu theory is because it's not a theory. It's just a fact. SOME characters are self aware and experience deja vu.
-I wasn't referring to the Deja vu itself. I was referring to him using it during the fight to pull this shit off. You didn't even acknowledge it. You could have at least said, you may have a point with the other one while jumping on the weaker theory.
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Ok I'll play. 
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His health is 6,000. And I assume it would be turn based.
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Ok, so let's do some math. Sans can do 1 damage per frame. Undertale generally runs at 30 frames per second so 6000 divided by 30 equals 200. Which is 3 minutes and 20 seconds.
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I asked If it's turn based because the Omega Flowey fight in game isn't. Add in any loads and you get roughly the equivalent of Frisk doing a blind no hit run of omega Flowey from fading in to the green soul. So you better hope Sans is good at dodging more than 1 attack coming from a single direction. Check.
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Well. Um. If it's not turn based. And, Flowey is a giant immovable target. if "Sans can do 1 damage per frame" which isn't really true, but we'll go with it, and Undertale runs at 30 FPS. And 6,000 divided by 30 is 200 which means he needs to do 3 minutes and 20 seconds worth of damage... If he puts up 200 bones on the GIANT IMMOVABLE TARGET, that's 200 damage per frame, Undertale runs at 30 fps, that makes it 200 x 30 which is 6000. So. Yeah. He could kill Omega Flowey in one second by putting 200 bones on him? xD #getdunkedonnnnn
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I thought it was 1 per frame. If that's not true then how does it actually work.
Ok, you got me there. Here is my final analysis. Could Sans win a fight with Photoshop Flowey. Yes and No.
YES: I like to think I'm pretty good at disproving Sans power because I'm almost always on the opposing side in a "could Sans win in a fight against" debate. The thing about Flowey is that almost none of my counter arguments work. He's a big, evil, dangerous, immobile target. This is the kind of fight Sans kit is designed to win. Hell, when you think about it this form is terrible for fighting anyone but Frisk. Good job Flowey.
No: Flowey has fought Sans before and knows his kit. In an actual fight Flowey would probably choose a form that would better counter Sans. (presumably something small and fast.) This is something he could totally do, the "ABSOLUTE GOD OF HYPERDEATH (couldn't find an emoticon. )" does this several times during his fight, and Omega Flowey is only one step down. Hell, he could make his sprite one pixel by one pixel, remove his hit box, or drop the fps to 1, (not to limit sans damage but to blind them both, in a competition of blind spam he would win.) he has reality warping powers over everything else. This is not a fight I could imagine Sans winning more than once, maybe twice if he was lucky and Flowey was cocky.
TLDR: In the scenario that the author of the comic presented Sans would win. Long term and in a realistic scenario Sans would lose.
That work for you?
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Undertale runs in clicks per frame. Sans' attacks damage at a rate of 4 clicks per frame which is 7.5 damage per second. The real mathematics: It would take Sans roughly 13 and a half minutes to kill Omega Flowey with one attack. Or, he could use 800 attacks to kill him in one second.
Omega Flowey's power's don't work like that. He has the power to SAVE and LOAD, and that's because he's powered by 6 souls with DT. That's it. That's ALL he can do. He doesn't show any "reality warping powers" throughout the entire fight. Another thing; Flowey didn't choose that form. It's an expanded form of himself and of the 6 souls within him. He's made up of vines, human flesh, and internal organs. He can't change what he turned into. Think of it like fusion in Steven Universe. They can't control what they look like in the end, and if 7 gems combined, it would be a giant mess in the end.
When Asriel changed his form, he changed into himself and a combination of Mettaton EX. When he changes back into his child form, it's because you SAVEd him. Asriel and Omega Flowey are two different bosses. This isn't even a proper claim. Asriel is powered by more than 6 souls, he's powered by 6 souls and every monster soul in the underground. Of course he's going to have more powers than Omega Flowey.
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Before I respond properly, what do you mean Mettaton EX? Where did that come from?
"He doesn't show any "reality warping powers" throughout the entire fight."
That is only partially true. Maybe our opinions on what counts as reality warping powers are different but form where I'm sitting, time manipulation counts. Not to mention all the other shit we see less determined people do with determination. Allow me to list characters and what they do with the all purpose plot Magoffin that is determination.
Undyne: Draws on the soul power of the Underground and later the world in Genocide. It may also be why so is so powerful to begin with.
Asgore: Creates a weapon and destroyers the mercy bar.
Toriel, Asgore, Humans Souls: keep their souls alive beyond death.
Alphys: Amalgamates and creates life/concusses.
Chara: Preserve their concusses beyond death until they are awakened by the player, remembering timelines.
Frisk: Time manipulation, STRAIT UP REFUSING TO DIE THROUGH OF SHEER FORCE OF WILL!
Sans: Though it is not my head cannon many people believe all the shit he does in Genocide should be attributed his determination. I personally say it was his perseverance but an argument can be made both ways.
Flowey: Time manipulation, bullets. This one requires a bit of explaining. all magic is preformed though souls. Humans souls have traits that grant them certain kinds of magic. Monster souls allow them to cast magic bullets and some of them have taints that grant them other abilities. Flowey has no soul, therefor it is impossible for him to have or cast any kind of magic except determination. There for he conjures bullets from the either because he belies that's something he can do so he does it.
Omega Flowey: Time manipulation, crashing the game, changing the: intro cut scene, save file, load point. Deleting your save file, creating multiple save files, changing form, he even changes the combat form turn based to real time.
You also argue that Omega Flowey is an extension of Flowey, but really? If it was really an extension of Flowey. THEN WHY IS IT NOT PIXEL ART. Everything in the entire game is pixel art except this. Even Flowey's greater forms as the god of HyperDeath are pixel art. This may be a bit of a hard concept to wrap your head around (not because your dumb it's just a hard mental shift for most people to make, even for me.) but if you think that (I'm just going to call it) live action thing is strange to you, imagine what it looks like to a pixel art character. This must be something form another dimension or plane of existence to them, and not just because of how it's shaped. it's even called Photoshop Flowey. Like Flowey went into your computer and constructed this abomination from whatever he could find on your hard drive. (or maybe he accessed the internet.) If this is really a combination of Flowey and the souls, then isn't the final boss of True Pacifist an even more horrid abomination, or live action, or both.
Certainly Omega Flowey is not as powerful as Azriel Dreemurr, but he still has insane amount of power over everything that he uses in the buildup to the fight, see above. It's the difference between 6 human souls, and 7 human souls. The way I see it, humans soul power multiplies exponentially for each soul you get. When the numbers get this big, the difference in 6 and seven stop mattering.
"But the barrio needed seven souls to break." Did it though? How did the monsters get that number exactly? Did they guess, do the math, could the math have been wrong? Omega Flowey didn't exactly try to break the barrier. Maybe Asgore came up with that number because it sounded right. Maybe the scientist of the underground used machines to estimate the power required to break the spell. Maybe seven mages cast the barrier so the monsters assumed they needed seven souls to break it. There is no way of knowing because it was never explained. We're just told that that is the number.
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Asriel's 'drill form.' Heart shaped hole, where Mettaton's SOUL resides. Shoulderpads look a lot like Mettaton NEO's. Gloves that as well have heart shapes on them.
Only a few of these are actually because of DETERMINATION
Undyne: She didn't draw on any SOUL power. She fought FOR everyone, her love and loyalty gave her the strength to survive long enough after death to fight you.
Asgore: He did not create the weapon. The weapon is actually called the 'Kings Trident.' Just because it's red, does not mean it's DETERMINATION. Him breaking the MERCY button was a little fourth wall break of the game. It was showing that Asgore didn't want to be spared.
Toriel, Asgore, Human Souls: Only the human souls were kept alive after death, and this was due to the fact they were in special canisters. Their souls were harvested after death, never truly shattering like we see in the game.
Alphys: The amalgamates were the result of her trying to save monsters who had fallen down by injecting them with the DT from the human souls.
Chara: A demon.
Frisk: The main character. The anomaly. Of course she'll be DETERMINED. Not sure this really counts.
Sans: Specify? Again, his soul color is Patience. Not Perseverance.
Flowey: The anomaly before Frisk. Of course he would be DETERMINED. Again, not sure if it counts.
Omega Flowey: The result of 6 souls coming together to form a massive DT powered TV flower that's not even pixelated. I mean... Yeah, of course he can SAVE and LOAD.
The... Face is pixel art? It actually IS an extension of Flowey, pixel art or not. It's him, and it's clear it is.
7 SOULs to bring it up, 7 SOULs to take it down. That's just how it works.
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"Asriel's 'drill form.' Heart shaped hole, where Mettaton's SOUL resides. Shoulderpads look a lot like Mettaton NEO's. Gloves that as well have heart shapes on them."
- If that's your theory then I won't stop you but it's not mine.
"Undyne: She didn't draw on any SOUL power. She fought FOR everyone, her love and loyalty gave her the strength to survive long enough after death to fight you."
-This doesn't explain why it wasn't DT. In Undyne's many speeches (spacifically the ones where she's dying) she mentions feeling the hearts and souls of the monsters (and in genocide the world) backing her up. they giver her power. It is not a stretch that her DT allowed her to call out for and accept this power. Even if that part is wrong whatever she does, it is still DT that allows her to do it.
The heroine reformed by her own 'determination' to save earth"-Check.
"Asgore: He did not create the weapon. The weapon is actually called the 'Kings Trident.' Just because it's red, does not mean it's DETERMINATION. Him breaking the MERCY button was a little fourth wall break of the game. It was showing that Asgore didn't want to be spared."
-Really, it's and actually Trident, then...
1. Where is the evidence that it's real.
2. Then were is he keeping it? Not under his robe, it's too big.
I know I'm not the only person to come to the conclusion that the Trident is magic.
If it's not Conjured form DT than why is it red. The royal guard all have white physical weapons and Undyne's magic spear is also white.
I would file the breaking as just a forth wall break if it wasn't for the fact that 99% of Undertale's forth wall breaks are 100% cannon.
Toriel, Asgore, Human Souls: Only the human souls were kept alive after death, and this was due to the fact they were in special canisters. Their souls were harvested after death, never truly shattering like we see in the game.
-I'm fairly certain that at one point Alphys says that DT keep the humasn souls alive, if not then it's not a stretch. Boss monsters like Asgore and Toriel are the only monsters who's souls linger after death, even if only for a few second. Their power may come form having slight amounts of natural DT. It's a theory, if it's not yours then ok then.
Alphys: The amalgamates were the result of her trying to save monsters who had fallen down by injecting them with the DT from the human souls.
-DT still did it, how does this disprove my argument?
Chara: A demon.
-That's a theory, there are others but ok, were did Chara get her power to begin with? Chara was a human before dying, answer that. I could easily be DT.
Frisk: The main character. The anomaly. Of course she'll be DETERMINED. Not sure this really counts.
HOW THE FUCK DOES THIS NOT COUNT! IT'S DT BEING USED TO WARP REALITY! THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!
Sans: Specify?
-Dodging, cutting invincibility frames, everything to do with his shear power output. I don't; know it's not my head cannon, ask someone who believes it.
Again, his soul color is Patience. Not Perseverance.
-See other posts arguments.
Flowey: The anomaly before Frisk. Of course he would be DETERMINED. Again, not sure if it counts.
-Again, why not? My argument is that DT has reality warping properties.
Omega Flowey: The result of 6 souls coming together to form a massive DT powered TV flower that's not even pixelated. I mean... Yeah, of course he can SAVE and LOAD.
-How does this disprove my argument?
The... Face is pixel art? It actually IS an extension of Flowey, pixel art or not. It's him, and it's clear it is.
-I don't understand how this disproves my argument but I think it's a head cannon, so you have yours and I'll have mine,
"7 SOULs to bring it up,"
-Never in game is that specified.
"7 SOULs to take it down. That's just how it works."
-I think this is the dumbest thing I have ever said ever. I came up with that on the fly, it was stupid, forget I said that. Of course it would take seven, that's just how it works. (God that was a stupid idea.)
Maybe you didn't understand the argument. I was trying to prove that DT has reality warping powers, so it is not a stretch that it can do just about anything, including shape shifting.
I even remembered another one. Flowey messes with the game over screen during his fight.
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PS: There is evidence of you read between the lines that Flowey's time manipulation works slightly differently that Frisks. However, there is so little evidence to support this and none of it is concrete so I won't bother listing it unless you ask. Just take that as you will.
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I was racking my brain trying to figure out were you got that number because I can't find it. Then went to check the wiki again. How did I miss that tab. I must have been on the wiki dozens of times I feel so dumb.
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SQWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Haha, sorry
Like I've said before, the conversation was the point. After all like Sans said, it's all gonna be RESET once one of them dies.... right?
Heh, well. I'll leave that one up to your imagination.
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Kay I'll mange. Thanks.
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And then...Sans get's rekt.
Seriously, I cannot stress enough that Sans cannot beat Omega Flowey.
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WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK THIS?!
Nope.
You need to support your claim.
You've opened this box, now COME AND SHUT IT!
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Okay.
Sans canonically has 1 HP, and it's even proven by the data files within the game itself. His attacks also only take out 1 HP at a time, it just so happens that KR mostly ignores INV frames (the notebook and glasses have been shown to resist KR to the point where Sans' first attack won't kill the player, even if they don't move). Even then, KR would take too much time whittling down all of Flowey's 6000 HP. It's only fast against the player because they have significantly less HP than most monsters, even at LOVE 19. Likewise, Sans was only able to dodge the Player's attacks, because the player's attacks were always in a specific area and took up a very small amount of space, Sans could dodge. And since the player can only move once per turn, there wasn't much to dodge. Compare that to Omega Flowey's fight, where there were no turns, the game mechanics that Sans used to his advantage are pretty much gone, and Sans' opponent uses several different types of danmaku (bullet hell) that stretches across a large area. Sans has been shown to dodge less than 20 times before having to resort to his Special Attack, so a bullet hell is something he's not going to successfully evade.
Though Flowey has been defeated by him before, that was still normal Flowey. We can tell that it was, since he has specifically stated that he needed Frisk's help in order to get past Asgore and obtain the human souls. Not only that, Omega Flowey has multiple save files at the ready, and uses them even when his health isn't half-way gone. Not only that, throughout the entire battle with Omega Flowey, he toys with Frisk, holding back just to watch them suffer. As he's shown at the end of their boss battle, he can control how much damage he can do (not he would need to in this scenario), as well as the placement of his enemy, and even LOAD his enemy into an attack. Sans can't stop that.
You might think that Sans' teleportation would work in this case, but Sans is not exempt from the effects of time travel. He's aware of the timelines, but he doesn't remember anything when time is reversed, save for a few vague feelings that every monster seems to have when it's done. Flowey could just LOAD a SAVE file, and bring Sans back into the same position, or maybe just into one of the attacks.
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While you make some interesting points, I'd like to look at it from a mathematical point of view. We know that Omega Flowey has 6000 health. We also know that Sans' attacks hit at 4 clicks per frame, which is 7.5 damage per second. Not just per attack, but wherever the attack is touching. For simplicity's sake let's look at it per attack.
If he were using one attack nonstop it would take him roughly 13 and a half minutes to kill Omega Flowey. But, there is the fact that Omega Flowey is a large, immovable target. It simply takes 800 attacks to kill Omega Flowey in one second.
Now, seeing that anywhere the attack hits damages simotaniously, it's clear that it wouldn't take that many attacks. A barrage of Gaster Blasters could do it. we know that Sans can change the size of them, so who's to say he can't make them the size of Omega Flowey even?
As for Flowey LOADing, he can't LOAD a player into an attack (if that were true, a no hit run would not be possible.) Whenever he LOADed, the soul was placed in the exact same place as when he had SAVED, and the exact same attack he used next was used. The LOADs in the fight play by the same rules as the LOADs in the game.
Further, Sans does not remember RESETs, but remembers LOADs. We know this because of how he acts after a RESET and a LOAD, we see it clearly in Genocide when he is counting our deaths. After a RESET, he simply forgets the previous timeline but is aware of it.
As for teleportation, couldn't he just, y'know, teleport on TOP of Omega Flowey?
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I don't how changing the size of his Gaster Blaster would make it stronger. If anything, the battle has shown that the Gaster Blaster's size only increases its area of effect, not the power of the attack or effect. Still, you raise a good point about the multiple attacks, though I'm not entirely sure if having multiple blasters hit the target at the same time would do more damage than they would if only one hit it. There's a moment in the battle where Sans double-whammys the Player with Gaster Blasters on both sides, but I can't tell if that does more damage than one.
For your second point, you seem to be forgetting the end of the fight, where Flowey is shown to actually load Frisk into his attacks, killing them over and over. You can't just use the moments when the player is in control of Frisk, the entire battle and the feats within them has to be addressed, including the story bits.
Finally, he doesn't remember LOADs. Not the way I think you're implying it. He counts the player's deaths, but not because he remembers them, but because he reads the facial expression of his enemy. He even has dialogue commenting on their facial expressions after they killed him and LOADed up the file to before the fight again. Besides that, even if he remembers the LOADs then it wouldn't change much, since he doesn't deviate from his pattern of attacks. I don't know if it's because he doesn't remember it, or if it's because he's just that lazy.
Two last things for this reply: Keep in mind that my whole argument is that Omega Flowey could simply LOAD Sans into an attack and end it, so that's why I don't see Teleportation to be much of a problem. Sans has also been shown in-game to be overpowered by Flowey after the plant absorbed the 6 human souls. It's in the moment before Asriel returns as the God of Hyperdeath. Though he did take Sans by surprise, Sans was still unable to escape.
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Changing the size of the Blaster would have an effect because wherever the Blaster hits, it is doing 7.5 damage per second. Due to the fact the player's SOUL is a very small target, it doesn't get the full effect of the Blaster. We know that the Blaster continuously and simultaneously hits everywhere while it's shooting because if you move into it and if you move in the stream, you still take damage. Therefore, if Flowey were to take a full on blast, he would be taking 7.5 damage per second wherever he is getting hit. Each square inch of the stream does damage. Look at it this way; if 2 square inches were to hit Flowey, instead of 7.5 damage per second, it would be 15 damage per second. Therefore the size of the Blaster does matter. In order to kill Flowey with one blaster in one second, he needs to call one that can shoot a stream of 800 square inches.
Now. For your point yes, he is LOADing them on an attack. However, before he SAVEd, he used the attack on the player. In order for Flowey to LOAD Sans on an attack, he would first have to hit Sans. Which would kill him, so.
Sans was more or less just rubbing the fact that the player had died so many times to him "the easiest enemy." I don't think anyone could read faces that well. But, that is a poor excuse. There is proof that Sans remembers the LOADs, and it's in his battle. There is an attack during the second half in which he teleports and randomly generated attacks are used. The patterns are never the same, though the attacks are. No other battle changes at all, we only get to see more if we change what we do. Sans, however, is using his knowledge of the LOADs to his advantage, albeit not very well.
Furthermore, it wouldn't matter if Sans knew about the LOADs or not. When Flowey LOADs it's to surprise the player who DOES know about LOADs and is not expecting their soul to suddenly jump and the attacks on screen to move. However, if Sans didn't know about LOADs, he'd simply forget the events that had transpired after the LOAD, but not before. He'd still know he was fighting Flowey, he'd still know what he was doing, and he'd still do the exact same thing.
Now, about Sans being captured. He COULD have just teleported out and helped you fight Asriel. But, if anyone knows it's impossible to win against someone that can mess with timelines, it's Sans. Now, that's not me saying he'd necessarily lose, that's me saying he knows he'd never win. A stalemate, if you will.
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Your first point seems more like an untested theory, but that's only because it's impossible to test and find out, so I'll just assume you're right about it for now.
For your point about Flowey needing to save right before attacking in order to use LOAD effectively...not for File 3. If you watch the end of the battle again, you'll see Flowey loading up a third SAVE file, regaining all of his health, and mockingly showing the damage done to him as 0. He then proceeds to LOAD the exact same file, without any indication of saving that file by the way, again. When he does this, he doesn't load them into the exact same situation of standing face to face. He LOADs them into an attack. No build-up, no warning. His enemy is LOADed into the middle of an attack animation. Not the same attack either. He just LOADs them into the beam or a bunch of thorny vines. He didn't SAVE before any attack for that file.
Now, as for your point about Sans and his knowledge of LOADs...I'll conceded to that argument. The only other battle where I found the pattern of attacks randomized is Photoshop Flowey, and he definitely keeps his memory.
Still, what is your proof that Sans would be able to escape? The way he acts? He acts like that all the time, except for when he's a lost soul (and a few moments during genocide or any run that involves killing people close to him). The way he blocks one of the bullet walls (I don't know if you think that was him, but I'll cover it just in case)? It's implied that Papyrus was the one to block it, since he's the first one to speak after a bone and a spear protect Frisk. It's never implied that Sans would be able to teleport out of the vines that bind him.
Besides, he'd lose anyway against Asriel, God of Hyperdeath. Dude has infinite stats, an attack that can wipe out an entire timeline while holding back (which causes unavoidable damage), and can stop your physical movements. I don't even know if they'd be able to fight each other anyway, what with the whole 7 souls thing, but all of this is unrelated.
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