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ManuelKrommenacker β Elven Ranger
#bayonet #elf #elven #elves #fantasy #hunter #hunting #huntress #jager #landscape #musket #ranger #rifle #skirmish #war #wolf
Published: 2018-10-06 12:44:22 +0000 UTC; Views: 54289; Favourites: 1008; Downloads: 0
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I just wandered why fantasy Elves never really adopted gunpowder considering how well it would fit their warfare style and their natural abilities as well as how their superior craftsmanship would enhance these weapons. Just starting to explore these concepts with small studies...Related content
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Look up the Iron Elves Series by Chris Evans
I asumed that this drawing was fan art for the books. A bunch of elves all use Muskets. Really really ncily painted. But I do thing the blade should be straight, as it makes it hard work as a stabbing weapon otherwise.
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Hey, I didn't know about these books, and I will definitely check these out! Thanks for sharing this! About the bayonet, what makes a good stabbing weapon is whether or not the tip of the sword is aligned in the same angle than the grip. Yataghans, Falcatas/Kopis, are all excellent stabbing weapons because the tip of the sword straightens out despide the overhaul shape of the blade, whichs emphasize slashing/hacking moves at first glance. The Kukri is NOT an efficient stabbing weapon at all for this reason, the tip on most design is shaped down, not aligned with the grip, making it poor at thrusting, but great for deep deep cuts similar to a thin bladed axe. Same goes the other way around for the gladius: most people consider it as a stabbing only weapon while it is as much as good at chopping (especially the hispaniensis or Mainz designs). The French Yataghan-Bayonet is the most obvious example: it admits a nice curve but then straightens out near the tip of the blade to align with the grip. Its design were adopted by most armies then, for more than half a century.
This design is efficient for multiple reasons. Having more reach in melee than the enemy was a constant fear in bayonet and rifle-length designs during the 19th century, as most melee action were broken BEFORE the actual clash, so the reach of the weapon and its psychological impact was of first importance. There the curvature allows the blade to be longer, giving more reach to the musket in melee, without the risk of coming within the bullet's trajectory.
Secondly a stabbing-slashing curved bayonet replaces both the socket bayonet (which was usually permanently attached) which had many flaws, and the hanger/short-sword (which is too many times disregarded by people but was a highly effective weapon if kept in good state). In close quarters like house-to-house fights during the 1870-1871 war, the yataghan bayonet, wielded as a short-sword, has proved deadly to the point the Germans feared nothing more than getting in melee with French soldiers in areas where a bayoneted rifle was too cumbersome to fence with. This dual purpose also adds an economical dimension: you only have to produce one weapon instead of a bayonet AND an infantry short-sword. Some armies retained a symbolic short-sword after adopting the Yataghan-bayonet, but most discarded it.Β
Finally, straight triangular bayonets get stuck within a body almost everytime or at least give a hard time recovering while your opponent is in most of the cases not out of combat after one stab, letting you highly vulnerable: it gets sometimes an awful lot of stabs to put a man on adrenaline out of combat, and it gets very ugly, hence the horror soldiers had for melee action. Thing is as I stated it, the bayonet was more of a psychological weapon and melees would end in a matter of seconds if the contact was made (the charged party would usually just give ground rather than sustaining a bayonet charge, or the charging party would either be shot to the last man before actually entering melee: this has been the case during the Battle of Cold Harbor, 1864, for instance. A knife/sword shaped bayonet gives more workaround to the soldier to avoid being vulnerable after the first stab, and prevented the blade from getting stuck (as much as a sword though). A thrust with an actual flat blade also increases the chance of the wound to be lethal orΒ incapacitating, cutting tendons or arteries, slashing to the face to make the blood blind the opponent and then finish him safetly, or whatever... You got the point!
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Interesting idea and perfectly implemented. Your skills are amazing.
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Often wondered how the battle of the Five Armies would have looked like if all sides had Flintlock muskets.Β
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Out of curiosity is that a flintlock, percussion cap or needle mechanism? Also is muzzle loading or breach loading?
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Here's the thing: early firearms were garbage. Their accuracy was terrible, they took forever to reload, they often misfired (which took forever to clear), and if the powder got damp it wouldn't ignite and your fancy firearm becomes crap. A skilled archer, on the other hand, could put an arrow through an armoured knight (in one end, out the other and everything in between), with a variety of arrowheads for different situations, at great range, accuracy, and rate of fire (at least compared to every other weapon they had). The key word there, however, is skilled. Training an archer to that level took years, and you needed another archer training them. There was a saying at the time "if you want a skilled archer, start with his grandfather". Guns become big because training someone to use them took a few weeks (and a lot of that was reloading maintenance, etc.) mostly because guns are direct fire weapons (point at the target) whereas beyond the very shortest ranges, bows are indirect fire (shoot in an arc to account for gravity). Now, elves are typically portrayed as having very long lifespans, and would thus have time to train their archers to a useful level of skill, which means the only real advantage of early firearms is pointless to them. Then, as others have mentioned, you have the noise and smell, the use of magic, etc. Basically, until you have breach loading, cartridges, rifling, etc. elves are going to get more use out of a bow.
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Um no the main arguments for guns was penetration which arrows lacked. youtu.be/XwgNpNEzyzI youtu.be/HAvbqtPjhxs youtu.be/DBxdTkddHaE youtu.be/ygaSMeTh-f0 I can go on and on. Yes rifles were slow and flawed- but they had additional benefits besides quick training time- they could penetrate armor which arrows ( besides perhaps heavy crossbows) could not.
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But you just mentioned the self-defeating part about magic. Armor needs to get stronger? Put magical wards on it. Regular bullets canβt pierce enchanted armor? Then enchant the bullets.
I never was into the idea of elves embracing guns immediately, I actually think orcs would embrace it the quickest once it was invented by someone else- because of their shorter lifespans- would make the phasing out of archers faster, and since theyβre generally depicted as less intelligent/less skilled/less patient, then theyβd probably easily embrace guns since they donβt require alot of training.
I donβt think material reasons would deter elves from using guns, many tribal groups in real life embraced guns- from Siberia to the Americas to oceania. Once itβs obtained from another group, it just needs maintenance, and if broken could theoretically be reversed engineered. Though i do think their long lives would play a role, though even elves would surely have different generations ( even if child births would be spaced out far longer than a human)- and itβs possible they might use both alongside one another. The penetrative power of guns complementing the speed, power and reload time of arrows- until the point comes when the now superior guns( with the exception that bows are still more silent)- would finally make them switch else theyβll perish ( in real life I think that didnβt occur until sometime between the 1850s and 1870s- when there was finally safe & reliable repeating guns, with great range, accuracy and ease of reloading. So that would give the elves many centuries to adapt. )
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guns are still cooler lol
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Your argument is solid, but you've hinged it all on a faulty premise. That elven guns were as bad as early human's guns.Β In fact they were much better crafted, and infused with magic, to be far superior.
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...Except they're elves and its high fantasy, so there are many ways to go around those problems.Β
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too much noise and dirt for elves i think. Moreover at the tech level you represented a skilled archer was still as deadly as a fusilier if not deadlier . Maybe dwarwes and orcs had more use for gunpowder
very nice uniform anyway
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I imagine they have such precision in their archery that it is equal or better than the firearms. Aim for the Eyes, something like thatβ¦
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Thanks to all comments and appreciations! Means a lot to me!
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I'd love to see your ideas concerning a Dwarf Grenadier or Highlander, a Half-Orc Fusilier, Halfling Artillerymen, and Human Paladin Hussars or Curassiers.
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Hell, I intend to give a shot at these kinds of ideas!
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Here are some more in-depth ideas. You have inspired me and I am starting work on a Napoleonic/Enlightenment period Dungeons & Dragons campaign.
Dwarves resembling Prussian or Bavarian infantry/artillery.
Halflings resembling British infantry/artillery.Β
Half-Orc Cossacks
Paladins resembling Hussars or Dragoons
Undead resembling the Black Brunswickers (zombies and skeletons led by a vampire officer).
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Napoleonic Dungeons and Dragons
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Well, it depends. Early gunpowder weapons had quite a few drawbacks. Not being too accurate or the fact you can't really arch your shots. They are quite loud too and need to be reloaded as well. What guns have over arrows however, is power and a lot of it. Bullets penetrate armour very well and after they became widespear armour kinda just gave up on trying until much, much later when kevlar and the such became a thing. But elves, depending on the setting, may prefer light armour, no armour at all, or armour that doesn't restrict silent movement. ON the other hand, if said elves would be using extremely strong armour or they were to face heavily armoured opponents, be it dragons or orcs or what else, THEN gunpowder could be a pretty important part of their military.
Oh right, but it depends on the state of magic. No point in having an elite sniper core with heavy rifles when you have Elfy MC Wizard who can shoot molten metal without bothering with the gun part.
And that's another thing, the advancement of technilogy may be hampered by the presence of another field, magic. If a large part of the potential inventors and scientists and engineers study magic, then technology would advance slower. This can be magnified by the long, long lifespan of elves.
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I'm inviting you to read my answer to Cyklopi's comment! I'm giving the thoughts I had prior to making the illustrations there!
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Looks a lot like LilyΒ Evangeline, well done either way
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Elven Sharpshooters and Fusiliers, they would be very effective as light infantry!
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I do think so as well!
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Wow, that's a cool picture and equally cool concept! π I was also wondering why fantasy genre is usually obsessed with recreating medieval period - why it's almost always sword and sorcery and not something set in more modern period like renaissance or enlightenment?
As for why Elves won't use flintlock rifles, I think that Chrispy92 give quite good and comprehensive answer - I was especially surprised how fast bowman can be. Hoever, I don't think that this is the whole story; I think that you have to remember that Elves usually are not portrayed as technology savvy people - they also don't have mines, industry and science. But also there is magic; if Elves would have wizards and
sorceress's, capable of casting fireballs and lightning bolts, there wouldn't be a need for gunpowder weapons. I think that wizards would be against development of technology - that could diminish power and influences of magicians.
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Thanks a lot for appreciations!
Well I gave a long thought before setting up the concept. First, every Fantasy world has its own differences, so you have either to pick one, or think upon what is common amongst them all. I must confess that I'm more a Warhammer guy than a LOTR fan honestly. That means even unwillingly, my mind would rather go towards Warhammer's universe... In Warhammer, Elven societies (High Elves mostly) do have a complex economy and really advanced craftsmanship alongside magic, which is less distributed than in LOTR's world. Magic is mastered by small groups of people and orders, but you don't exactly base armies upon just that. You have to field units that rely on weapons, discipline and skills to defeat the enemy. Still like you said, Elven societies are in general very reluctant on technological advances and social perturbators because their lives are very long and thus prefer to tread carefully and think a lot before introducing big changes or making new diplomatic ties for instance...
But there are several factors that can push Elven societies to change in my opinion. In Warhammer's world, even though High Elves have a very long life expectancy, death is around everything and everywhere, even for Elves, that don't live in that small gated communities like in LOTR (who only sally out and go to war when there is no other option). They are in contact with other peoples (war or trade) and the forces of change in Warhammer's lore are very powerful and destructive, pushing even very conservative races to extreme adaptation.Β
In such a context, I think Elves would have adopted firearms sooner or later. This may have caused social trouble at some point or not. Which is another interesting concept to explore. But Elvish physical abilities compared to a human could have put firearms to a whole new level, not only talking about accurate eyesight, senses, perception... but also sound discipline, sense of abnegation, cold heart and mind. Basically Prussian doctrines on steroids. Imagine how quickly an elf would reload a flintlock, being less affected by battle chaos than a human, or perform with a bayonet in close combat situation.Β
Now there's the question of how would an Elf be willing to sacrifice his almost eternal life on a firing line during a battle in open field. Well first, the said advantages of the Elves over other races would have given them a tremendous edge, outranging or outperforming in every single aspect of ranged and melee combat the enemy, thus considerably enhancing their survivability on the battlefield. They could deliver one big volley, Redcoats style, then scatter and regroup elsewhere very quickly, or simply retreating a bit each time.Β
Secondly, I imagined an Age/Wealth social classes system, not without similarities to the one of the Roman Republic. In such a system, Elven younglings would have been put in the most risky situations. Their value to society in terms of wealth and experience is neglectable compared to older individuals and their spirit and inexperience make them more warlike than more elderly populations. These would have taken the biggest toll in this kind of warfare.
Then as an Elf would advance in age and wealth within the society, he would put his experience to more specialized and more and more elite units than "line infantry", like Rangers or Grenadiers, Cavalry... We can imagine "Guardsmen" as Elder Elves who accumulated their lot of combat experience, very skilled and wise, the most precious individuals in the Elven society, as some sort of an Elite Reserve units, who would be called upon only in desperate situations or when you'd need something to be done no matter what the cost is. This system would allow Elves who pulled themselves through the first class to expect a long a rather safe life but still contributing to the war effort.Β
In my opinion, Elves having a long life is the very reason why rifles would have been picked over bows and arrows. For a human, it takes almost a "life" to train a perfect archer (maybe 10-15 years). But what is 10-15 years for an Elf? Nothing. Thus I hardly see this as an valid point here. The level to which Elves would have carried gunpowder marksmanship would have been in my opinion far more complex than archery. And far more rewarding. Elves can dodge arrows and everyone can wear a thick armour, but good luck dodging a volley of musket balls, or enhanced cartridges for all it could be. As for stealth, Austrians have designed WindbΓΌchsen as experimental weapons, now imagine what Elves would have came with!Β
Just my thought here!
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I'm afraid that even tough your idea isn't entirely incorrect, it wouldn't be all sunshine and gunpowder for elves. During the sengoku jidai period of Japan, guns were introduced to their warfare. And altough one of the scariest matchlock warriors were the monks, the fact that a matchlock can be fired by pretty much anyone transformed the warfare tactics where lots of shigaru were used instead of elite samurai troops only.
Meaning that even if avarage elves troops were to perform better than avarage, let's say, human troops do, quality may not prevail over quantity in this case. Humans and other races may very well produce troops many times faster than elves, and many years of training may don't have a high enough impact to win over completely. I think the cocnept of a strained elven guard against a neverending pressure of other races may be worth exploring.
Oh right and if we go even further down the line...WW1 would probably be absolutely horrible for elves.
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Well your point is more tied to the manpower issue. During the gundpowder era, small countries will low manpower pool would still pick the best and most destructive weaponry available, but would emphasize discipline, training and the "esprit de corps" over a smaller but elite army. Take Sweden's Karoliner, British redcoats... The Elves would just adapt their tactics. Or put most their own troops in reserve and request a heavy human or other races' mercenary contracts to preserve their own manpower, like the Prussian army during the SYW, or the British in many occasions. One can imagine Humans "foreign regiments" in service of Elven realms... Elves would also prefer to fight defensive wars and battles, giving them an edge and limiting the casualties to the strict minimum. Also in, say, Warhammer universe, the Elves are not especially short on manpower, their realms are in fact quite crowded: the main issue is do they have the abnegation to face an instant death facing bullets and standing no chance to retaliate? I think they would.
And morale was the big thing of gunpowder era battles. If you look at battle reports of most 18th c. conflicts, the armies fielded were huge but the killing ratio was quite low in fact. If a commander saw himself in a checkmate position, he wouldn't order his troops to advance stupidly into ennemy fire, but would call a stalemate or just retreat and give ground. Elves would not give ground even sustaining heavy casualties, they would build themselves a fearsome reputation there. Their Humans foes though, would thus hesitate to face their lines of superior muskets armed troops, drilled to perfection, firing 2-3 rounds per minute more than them, knowing they'd have to basically wipe out units to the very last Elf. Even more in a defensive position...Β
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And all of this ignores magic completely so far. Magic could probably change the entire warfare advancement so much that actual historycal data becomes irrevelant.
Either way, I don't know that much about Warhammer. My favourite race is the Kaldorei (Night Elves) from WarCraft. They are elves, but they are also fierce and strong.
And even through their society kept close to nature, they have some quality engineers to create the glaive throwers they have.
Either way, nice to see that you did your research on the topic
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