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newklear — Re: The Future Of DeviantART?
Published: 2005-03-08 13:03:08 +0000 UTC; Views: 9871; Favourites: 38; Downloads: 1100
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Description Okay, so there was a few people pointing out in my last article that although I was talking a lot, the words were pretty vacant and meaningless, because they had no action behind them. Put simply, although I was saying it with conviction, I wasn't saying it with a real solution, which is the ultimate aim here.

So, what is the point of this article you ask? Simply to offer solutions to those in higher places, and to ultimately try to affect some change around here, to make deviantART truly better for all of us. Be we members, subscribers, staff, or senior, we're all essentially the same thing: deviants. For those of us not clued in on what deviant actually means, let me display you the definition as drawn from HyperDictionary.com:

Deviant:

   1. [n]  a person whose behaviour deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behaviour
   2. [adj]  markedly different from an accepted norm; "aberrent behaviour"; "deviant ideas"


In light of this, the name "deviantART" can be taken in two different lights: first being that the art displayed within is something which steps outside the box, a new and unique spin on the way art is created; and, that the people here differ from those regularly seen in the world from day to day, as if they possess some kind of extraordinary power for creation. And to be completely honest, in just over two years, I'm yet to see otherwise. The people here are what keeps me here, because they're for the most part, wonderful. And while I realise I'm yet to "meet" every single deviant on here (that'd be a huge feat being that there is well over a million accounts on the databases here, around 1.2mill if I'm not mistaken), the ones I have are generally the kind of people that make the world a better place for everyone concerned, not just themselves or a select few. Without deviants, deviantART becomes nothing more than, well, ART.

In light of the above, it frequently gets said that along with the deviant aspect of the site, there needs to be a strong grounding in the actual ART side of things too. And I don't sway from that, I feel anyone here should contribute somehow, be it comments, offering art to view, or just simply patroning the art shown. Now, to bring the definition into it once more, the same source as the above's definition of "art":

Art:

1. [n]  the creation of beautiful or significant things; "art does not need to be innovative to be good"; "I was never any good at art"; "he said that architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully"
2. [n]  the products of human creativity; works of art collectively; "an art exhibition"; "a fine collection of art"
3. [n]  a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art"
4. [n]  photographs or other visual representations in a printed publication; "the publisher was responsible for all the artwork in the book"

Essentially, art is creation. Defining it further loses the meat of the word and the entire idea of it becomes obsolete. Now, combine the two definitions outlined above, and we give rise to something along the lines of, "Creation through an alternative mode", or simply, what I like to refer to as, "new creation". This aspect of the site is very important, and the cornerstone for the community. Without it the community wouldn't exist, but, on the flipside, without community the art wouldn't be able to be displayed as there would be no-one to actually view the work. I think it is pretty obvious just what implication the deterioration of either would have, which is why we have to inhibit either failing before it gets to a critical point that would surely eliminate the existence of this community.

To say that something needs to be done is fair enough, but to actually offer, and carry-through on that is sadly, seldom ever seen. The older deviants have (for the most part) expressed that they've seen a serious decline in community spirit and morale, as well as the actual art declining to an all-time low. To me that suggests two things:

1. That the deviance of the community isn't being encouraged in the right manner (read: constructive, or enhancing),

and to compound it,

2. That the artistic side of the community has no real drive being pumped into it.

While yes, there is activities that are taking place to try and enhance the two (or seemingly so, anyway), they're not really achieving the desired effect. Why? Because there are many factors counteracting them (which I will outline and discuss in some depth later-on in the article), making it redundant for the most part to actually initiate them in the first place. Also, it's not reaching the right people in the right context, making it even less effective. At this point in time, I can virtually hear the gears in your head kicking over, "But Ben! What does all of this mean? I'm confused!" or something to that effect. Well, put simply, it means that in order to have something work it first needs to be carried out in the right manner. Take the example of a chemical reaction. In order to achieve a desired result, the elements need to be added in not only the right amount, but in the right conditions. Without one or the other of those factors playing into your hands, the chance you'll fail is extremely high. Convert this back to the deviantART situation, and the same thing still holds true. Not only is timing essential, but the actual manner that it's carried out needs to be seasoned to perfection. Anything less and the deviants you aim to serve will not only leave dissatisfied, but feeling once more that the community is falling to nothing. Kind of a catch 22 really, which makes this something which is even more imperative to be solved quickly and efficiently.

Now, this is where it starts to get fun. This is where we all get to tell the guys who run the show how to do their jobs. Well, at least I do anyway. Whether they opt to listen to what I say is, however, entirely at their discretion. Above I've mentioned a few key elements which have acted as the cornerstones so far:

1. The general gist of deviantART as a definition and in practice,

2. What I currently see deviantART becoming,

3. A question of practice, and how effectively things are being done.

To match these, I've tabulated a list of what I currently feel are the issues that need to be assessed to re-enrich the community as a whole. After all, what is the ultimate point in giving a select few creature comforts while the rest starve? As with the previous, let's relate this to a real-life situation. The world is currently broken up into two classes. The first world, or those who have everything they need, and live life with the most expensive of everything, as well as more than ample of everything. Then, we move to the third world, starving an facing famine as a constant, as well as having little of what the westernised world (the first-worlders) consider to be, "quality of life". With that, we can notice a comparison between the deviants in relation to the way quality of "deviantLIFE" so to speak is distributed amongst those using the site, and I'm sure there would be some very interesting results determined from that. More interesting than that would be the actual symbols those experiencing better quality of time here hold. Personally, yes, I am a senior member, so to say that I don't get features (or creature-comforts) blind-faced in an open-forum such as this one would be not only quite blatantly stupid, but not only that, ridiculous. There's around 320 seniors at last count (that I'm aware of, anyway), so I'm sure one would call me out for it. Also, to match that, subscribers get another set of features, which is more than fair enough (after all, subscribers are a bulk of what keeps the site afloat), and staff members get a completely different set again. With all this levelling going on, it's little wonder (some) people are becoming antagonistic about not only status, but feeling as if they're superior over another deviant simply because of the aforementioned featureset. This actually rolls over into my first gripe/suggestion, which works out for all of us.


Problem One: Status Means EVERYTHING.

As above, the status thing is kind of getting to the point where it's not only petty and meaningless, but it's also quite tragic. To see members who have as much right as any other member to be part of the site getting ridiculed simply because they have no little star beside their name or some token which justifies them as a person, or a featureset which makes them so far above those below, that is quite tragic. To see my fellow deviants ran into the ground because they haven't got a paid account for any number of reasons is horrible. Admittedly I've been that way previously (sure, it was over a year ago, but this still becomes null), and I know a good number who have also. The elitism is something that deviantART seems to have a lot of, people who're feeling as though they're worth more per-se via their asterix.

As a senior I all too often hear the words, "but you're a senior" get muttered in my direction, as if the status actually makes me act any differently or better than any other deviant on the site. While all seniors have obviously done something staff feel commendable, they also are the same as anyone else on the site should be, deviants. The bias towards certain groups isn't funny anymore, and it needs to stop. This was also true as a subscriber back in my first year here, a "fun game" in the forums of the time was to bash "n00bies" because of their lack of subscription. At the time however, it was quite hard to actually get one compared with now, which makes it even less right. However right it seemed at the time, doesn't stop it from being nothing more than simple bigotry.

My solutions? While you may think I'm suggesting some form of "communism" or similar, this is quite contrary to what I actually think. I think that the status of a deviant should become invisible to anyone else, with only you knowing your actual status. And yes, while I realise this is very impractical given the number of deviants already here, the same grounding principle can be applied to other solutions. Having status symbols stripped-back to a bare minimum would help to amend the holes in the community caused by the gap caused by, what I like to refer to as, "bigger penis syndrome." And no, it's not restricted to only males as the name would suggest, rather can be applied to everyone. This so-called, "bigger penis syndrome" arises when someone feels superior to someone, simply because they feel they have a larger hypothetical "endowment", and eventually leads to completely writing-off other people because of it. On the same token, this can be applied to deviantART directly. This happens quite a bit when people develop large egos, especially when directly proportional to their "status" symbol. Be this from senior-member, senior-subscriber, admin-all, or the most common, subscriber-member, all are something which shouldn't occur on this site, and in my opinion, can be eliminated to a manageable level.

Another solution, make policy violation an easier task for both policy violation administrators, and for the people who're being belittled. After all, if you can't stop human nature, at least offer some hindrance to it. Currently, submitting a violation ticket is somewhat difficult, so imagine the situation when you place a younger deviant in the same. Not only would it become a mess, but eventually, it would get to the point where PV's are being avoided, simply because the process is somewhat difficult. We're already at that point, which is a shame. On the same token, we're seeing a few new PV admins being implemented lately. It's quite ironic to put on new staff to manage a failing system. I suppose it's just like gunpoint democracy in a way, simply because neither are effective or truly useful in reality. Perfectly fine in hypothetics, but once you start involving outside factors, (let's face it, humanity is something very unpredictable) it becomes difficult to achieve properly. Combine this with the outside factors aside from it, and you've got yourself a fine little cocktail to play with.

In effect, both of these combined would work effectively in my mind. Community would be enhanced, and bias would be dropped as a virtue of the above outlined changes.


Problem Two: Subscribe NOW!

This one is definitely one that gets me. The so-called lifeblood of the site is the subscription service, which if I'm not mistaken makes up a majority of deviantART's funding, yet, it's not really giving as much as it should be to draw everyone in effectively. To be completely truthful, a few features (albeit mostly useless) added to my page doesn't really scream out, "Hey! Get this NOW!" at me. If anything, the greatest drawpoint that a subscription currently has is the browse features, like larger thumbs and the message center. Failing that, it's not really (seemingly) offering all that much to the average user. Now, I pose a few questions to the guys with their fingers on the triggers. What happened to the old features, like custom content? And the ability to do RSS? Also, what happened to the promise of NO ADS! which I see at least a few times on the subscribe page? I still see advertising, so either I'm receiving miscommunication, or something doesn't equate. Mayhaps it's just the fact that the person conveying the message of "NO ADS!" has a different understanding of the statement than I do, but, in that case we have yet another barrier to break down. Perhaps maybe I'm asking too much by this, but I know I'm definitely not convinced when I look at the subscribe page (the only real reason I'd buy one is because I hate being unsubscribed, and the message center is something I need) to go and buy one without needing to hesitate. In other words, a few journal features, an asterix and some message center stuff don't really make me jump for my credit card to buy one. Ideally, this is what would happen. However, in the current form, it's not very likely. Hell, I don't really care about the ads thing. It's not the fact that advertising exists, it exists everywhere. It's the fact that, inspite of everything, a promise written into the site is being neglected. Principle is a far greater cause than personal convenience.

Suggestions? Fix it. Fix the holes in the promises on the page to subscribe. Get rid of the ads that we as subscribers still get, inspite of the claim of none. Bring back the exclusive content which has been promised since the release of version 3 way back in August 2003. As we head into 2005, this promise is still yet to be fulfilled. Also, introduce useful features for subscribers to toy with, not just a string of random things that, while they're shiney and seem to be cool serve little-to-no actual functional purpose. No matter how you decorate a shanty, forever a shanty shall it remain. I know this is a very outside possibility and probably never going to occur, however, I feel allowing us to use more formatting for our pages (journals specifically) would be a nice additive, and the ability to hide certain elements on a page (for example, the statistics) from everyone except the user themself. Yes, I do mean the ability to add a stylesheet or at least tables to journals, the current situation is a little hard without making everything image-intensive, thus hindering those on slower connections. However, with a stylesheet it becomes easy to replicate the same design easily, and in most cases, only needing a single image to be loaded and parsed. At the very minimum, the ability to use the tag would be an advantage, because it allows customisation to a manageable point.

Asking around, people have told me they want simple things that serve a functional purpose, like skins. And although it's been said that it's bandwidth ineffective by the admins, this still has yet to be given a full answer. I fail to see why this would need to have anything outspacing a simple import stylesheet, denoted by an integer in the filename/database. There would be no more bandwidth output than the current, and wouldn't create any extra unwanted serverstress. Development of them would ensure people like pachunka stay in a job, and definitely would help to give dA the fabled, "homely feel".

In summation: the more you give, the more you get. As I mentioned earlier, no matter what you choose to decorate a shanty with, it's always going to be a shanty. However, a mansion can have any furnishings and still be a mansion. So, is subscription a shanty, or a mansion?


Problem Three: But I Know About ART!

Unfortunately, most people on this site don't. Too often I see people around here claiming to know the Alpha-through-Omega of art around this place, but as soon as you attempt to offer a worthwhile opinion to appreciate that, seldom is the response in kind. While this would be acceptable normally, it's gotten to the stage where people's lack of training or knowledge in art is becoming a hindrance on the community. The level of "advanced critique" you can generally expect is, "hey, nice photo!" or something similar. But, it's not only the lack of knowledge in art, so much as it is the lack of knowledge in construction of a comment to compound it. While the typical structure of the generic 5-word comment is acceptable in times when you're satisfied with a work, and you're open to both structured and unstructured comments, however, in times when an artist is seeking to better themselves via the assistance of others offering their constructed opinions. While simple, "I like it" comments are successful (for most people, anyway) at giving a small ego-boost momentarily, for those of us wanting more it leaves a slightly bitter taste in their mouth. I know I'm one of those people.

The voices erupt from the stadium. "Well Ben, what do you suggest, seeings you're so knowledgeable about everything? Huh?!" you say. Well, here is what I say. Education. It's been passed around a few times, and certainly is something people are trying to achieve actively (read: The Comment Revolution that splat has set up), however, it's not receiving any great administrator support, or at least where it counts. This is pretty saddening really, because while the admins are quick to run more contests and whatnot, something like this which really is an essential piece of the puzzle to help lead onto those things is being neglected. There's enough things written on how to comment around the site, why isn't it being picked up? I'm bemused by it. So, what I feel should be done goes something like this: Implement these things into a welcome page for new deviants. Make hot topics of it for the existing members. Hell, just implement it any way it can be to get people to see. There is over 1 million people here, it's time to start educating them.

While we can't afford (both monetarily and time-wise) to go to school to learn the techniques of critique or the theory of art, we still can all adopt a few techniques to make it better for all of us. Even offering something outstretching, "it's good" by way of telling the artist what is good would be an improvement, because simply saying something is good without justification becomes nullified. However, adding at least the good factor into a comment not only helps the artist to grow, but helps the viewing audience because it assists in actually asking the commenter why they like a work of art, begging them to take a deeper look into it. In effect, this means community growth as a whole, and generally a happier disposition from all concerned. We're all kids at some point in time, and in the art world that property of childness can pay off if you transfer it correctly, however, immaturity in commenting isn't the best way to do it.


Problem Four: Personal Moderation Is The Best MODERATION.

Sadly, it's really not. Ultimately, humans will be humans, and as such will be inclined to be foolish at some point in time. As much as anyone wishes to deny it or run it into the ground, it's a factor that exists as a virtue of us being humans, something we cannot change. That is all well and good, everyone needs to let the child inside out occasionally. But, it seems to be occurring at a largely growing rate around here, and in the wrong places and situations. Worst affected by foolishness just happens to be a community at large, deviantART being one such community. Take a look around the site for a few minutes where people congregate (read: Forums, dAmn! , andShoutbox ), and I'm sure you'll see people interacting properly, interacting well and friendly. However, keep browsing and I'm sure you'll find those who're not quite so cheerful and "properly" interacting. While it remains peaceful for the most part, that "most" is slowly degrading into something smaller and smaller as the days and weeks go by. While there is new help staff and such being employed around the place to field this, there is still sections of the place left unchecked. Shoutbox for example. I've been in there every day for the last week (as some sort of a survey, as well as getting back to some old roots), and I've seen 2 forms of enforcement in the entire time. Once was a dedicated moderator for a few minutes, another was a policy violation admin. What this says to me is that it's being neglected somewhat, no matter what anyone wishes to tell you. From experience, the Shoutbox does seem to be able to run on it's own for the most part, however, things travelling in their current direction don't seem to support this fact.

To compound this issue, I stepped foot into the forums a little while back. I've never seen them in a worse state in the entire time I've been here. Topics are generally quite bland and morbid, and although there is sometimes a policed state occurring it happens in a manner which actually hinders deviants from interacting not only well, but meaningfully too. Banning people for something which is supposed to boost morale is quite ludicrous, if you ask me. So, let's sum-up the facts here. We've got a forum which is for the most part unmoderated (unofficially moderated), and the Shoutbox which has dedicated moderators, yet still isn't getting it's needed attention. Either I'm missing something, or someone isn't writing their job descriptions too well. It's kind of ironic for some of the most active parts of the site are still unchecked with dedicated moderation, because, as everyone who frequents either will testify, "stupidity" and tomfoolery is surely on the increase. While these things are good when used with personal moderation, they get quite annoying and disheartening without. Sadly, with the main demographic of the website being middle-teens, this as a generalisation, means that the level of personal management is much lower, with teens being more inclined to "act the fool" as it were. Until something is done to stop these things, the foolishness of things such as forum-flooding and excessive spam are going to continue to grow in numbers, and as a general rule make the website a lot less fun to interact with for everyone concerned. I can't vouch for anyone here except for myself and a select few who have told me, but I prefer deviantART to be a fun place to be. I like being able to log into the site and have a good laugh occasionally, but for the most part just be in a pleasant environment. It's a sad thing that keeps diminishing.

"Ben, for the love of GOD! Stop whinging!" Fine. I'll offer this solution (which is pretty obvious to me): Get people in. I know they've made an effort to try to get people such as the now-converted dAmn Army to occupy the Shoutbox as well as official chatrooms (which I've only ever actually seen once in their entire existence) and tried to keep the forums under-wraps with the occasional admin visit, but it's not effective. Not being critical of Scott's judgement because personally I feel I probably would've done the same, rather just noticing when something isn't working. To stop something becoming another localised "Hell" as it were, you've got to have some kind of brute force. Some would argue a policed state is not the answer, however, seeing an inverse correlation between lesser administrative activity in said places and increasing foolishness argues against that. Adding administrative bodies to rectify and look after a specific zone of the site would assist in curbing this increase. Not just any administrative bodies either, rather, specialist ones that are familiar with what they are looking after. The current dAmn Army looking after the Shoutbox situation is quite horrible, as most have never even set foot inside of it. Giving someone power in a region they are familiar with and like not only increases productivity, but enhances community-staff relations. The galleries of art are moderated, so I ask this question: why can't the community be the same? While there is moderative bodies, they are, generally, not there at critical times. One thing that was (moreso than currently) effective as such when I was moderating the Shoutbox was timetabling. This was a loose time when it was suggested you should be around, to look after your keep.

Community isn't about size or regal, it's about effective communication. Unfortunately, those lines have been severed somewhere along the way. It appears time to send in a repair crew.


Problem Five: The Best Features Are The Ones You USE.

Yes. They really are. So, why don't they still exist? If you're bemused as to just what I'm talking about, chances are you weren't around the site around version 2 (2002-2003 stylee, baby) or prior. If you do however, I'm sure you'll agree that the feature sets that we have now are pale in comparison for the most part, and certainly lacking a lot of the function of the original tools. Admittedly, dA has mentioned it has a few tricks up it's sleeves in concerns to NEW FEATURES! as certain administrative bodies have chosen to put it, but until they're actually implemented, it's going to take a lot to convince most of us. I know I certainly feel that deviantART is no longer one of the most powerful tools I have, because the features that gave it that status have gone missing somewhere. Things like packs (to return as "collections" I do believe they're to be called) and full deviant information at the top of a comment beside the deviant’s name, little semantic things that made this place so much easier to use. The list goes on, and on, and on. While I can understand why some disappeared (a la lasthost on comments and such), others I'm still very confused why they're yet to be reimplimented. As far as features are concerned, version 3 was a nightmare for "power-users" so to speak. As with a computer administrative "power-user", a deviantART "power-user" demands the most of the features and makes the most of available tools. That is so much harder to do now, and it seems a lot of people have lost that love for using deviantART as more than a site, using it as a tool. I know Angelo has mentioned in a few places certain features would return, I'm yet to see anything one and a half versions later.

Now, if you're still wondering why the hell I'm complaining about outdated features (or what seem to be if you've not used them), take a look for yourself . Most of the features we had were great, and I'm yet to get a reason from any administrator why any of them (that had an actual functional purpose and non clear-cut reasoning) were removed. I'm also yet to get an ETA on any of them. Just sit tight and wait, I guess. I know I'll love if they come back, and I'm sure everyone else who used them will too. Maybe even those who didn't, also.

On the flipside of this, the site also needs to house some new features to make it a more viable tool for artists globally, be they subscribed or unsubscribed, senior or administrator. We need things we'll all benefit from, no matter how simple. A few good examples of these are some of the JavaScript "hacks" floating around the place at the moment, such as the overrides for the "collective rectum" I've seen (hey, it's a novelty, but it's a cool thing to show just what can be implemented with some simple JavaScript), and the more functional ones such as radio boxes beside certain deviants in the message center to highlight their entire lot of submissions. Personally I'd love to have that functionality, something so simple can make life so much easier. Also, the script which places a thumb beside the comment box on a deviation is very useful for those of us who're critique junkies, as it allows us to view the work while we comment and not have to move back and forth repeatedly. It both amuses and saddens me that there are regular deviants throwing in hours of code to make the lives of other of us easier, yet I'm still seeing no huge developments from the codemonkey team. While I understand a lot of the work is done underground so to speak, it'd still be nice to occasionally see some slight sign of this and mayhaps even a sidenote saying, "Yes. We're doing XXXX, it'll work like this, and it'll be done by this time hopefully" or something similar. That would not only make people a little-less anxious about what is happening in deviantland, but also, maybe, just possibly give the people who patron the site some idea just what to expect in the future.

Now, before you demand answers, I'm going to give them. This one is really simple: implement them. There's occasionally good ideas float around the suggestions forum, and constantly great ones in the other facets of the site. So, my message to deviantART is, use them. I understand that the current code-monkeys are strapped to death with their coding duties already, so, hire the people who put the effort in anyway. There's really no point to doing that kind of project for direct implementation without it being properly absorbed into the system, so why not give the guys with the brains who actually can pull it off a shot? I understand the risks of this, giving people access to the source code of deviantART is risky, yes, but so is every other facet of administrating the site. But, ideally, it's the same as any other person getting hired by the company, be that for gallery control, policy administration, et al. There are a stack of wonderful PHP/Java coders around the place with great ideas and functions that work, it's time for this place to start paying attention. Also, token with that is the fact that there are things desperately needed getting neglected for bigger, shinier projects. Quite sad, really. A wise man once said, "No matter how you paint a shack it'll always remain as a shack; Build better things on it and it'll one day become a home." This is very true of deviantART, what is the ultimate point in "painting" the shack as it were, when it could easily be a house? It confuses me.

Also, to compound this, we've heard many promises of upgrades to the browse function happening in some of the sections (namely, Literature) and promises that it will be released sometime. How about some updates? Let's quickly relate this to the whole consumer-supplier thing for a moment. As a consumer, when you buy a product and something gets promised to happen, you like to know how everything is going on your products, don't you? I know personally if I'm going to invest my time in something, I at least want to know that my time isn't going to be shattered in a matter of moments. deviantART is exactly the same, even the smallest of updates would suffice. This isn't just limited to the updates on the browse function, rather everything. Once a year in a, "State of Affairs" kind of article isn't really sufficient to keep the kids at bay. And not just in the Status Forum. Currently, I'm seeing updates 3 or 4 days after they happen there, and around 2% of people I see actually care to look in that circumstance. That is completely up to the guys in charge, and not the point I'm making. The point is, sharpen up and let the people know. This may actually solve a lot of help tickets being sent, as well as help out the guys up top by alleviating some of the "tin-foiled deviants" as they were called. The ball is in your court guys, who's up for some three-on-three?


Problem Six: My Pageviews Make Me A Better DEVIANT!

Sorry to break it to you kids, but pageviews don't really mean shit. In essence, yeah, they demonstrate how much traffic your main page has had, but really they don't display much of anything else. On-site, I've found mainly 4 different types of deviant:


1. The Egotist

This subset of deviance is one that irks me to quite large levels. These guys have a massive amount of pageviews, yet their contribution to the community is about as much as a common bar of soap. They submit art, they receive comments, they accumulate DTF's to display their self-worth on the site. Stepping outside to comment maybe once in a few months, and even then only stretching a few words on it. They really don't do much except, as the old saying goes, sit and look pretty.

While this is acceptable on it's own in very small doses, the envelope gets far-pushed when they develop large egos. For the most part, these guys that I've seen tend to have over-inflated egos, and huge fanbases that make it exponentially grow by the week. Having fans is one thing, but having a horde of screaming fangirls to do your bidding is another. They tend to feel they are more important and have a greater worth on the site than anyone else and their opinion, and their hit counters actually aid in backing them up.

2. The Quiet Achiever

These guys are one of the classic examples of the guys who're backstage on massive rock concerts. Quite a good example of this would be, how often do you hear people ask who set up a Metallica concert? Basically never, even though they've put in just as much, if not more work than the ones who get the fame. Giving the site their all every day they're here, and doing it with a brave face, they go, albeit unnoticed.

This, isn't really right. I'd love to count the amount of times I've stumbled on an artist who is giving it so much more than the type-1 deviants, producing, on a general basis more heartfelt and original work, yet no-one is around to see it. A lonesome-crowded west kind of thing (excuse the poor Modest Mouse reference, couldn't think of a better analogy), in that there is so many of them, so much skill and no-one around to see or appreciate it. If you ever met a person that's like this, please, give them a shoutout or two and let them know that they're appreciated, after all, this site is about making the world a smaller place for all of us. Don't let good talent appear to be unappreciated, it's a terrible waste.

3. The Give-Nothing

Just as the name suggests, they do just that. Give nothing, get nothing in return. They don't comment, they don't submit, they don't get views. These ones are the ones that generally complain about views, except in an opposing fashion to the type-1 deviants. We see all-too-many of these ones creating threads in the forums, "ho do u gt mor paegvyooz no1 luvz me!" or somesuch, always getting the same responses. That is, interaction. Quite sad, really.

These are ones that just sit here and try to make themselves look like they're doing something, when in fact, they're just sleeping on our lawns. This group can be extended once more into the popular class, where the people submit, and occasionally comment when time permits. This is fair enough, to some degree. After all, not everyone can boast a name such as, "Father Time".

4. The What-Goes-Around-Comes-Around

The ones who really earn it. They comment with skill and precision, they submit quality work, they actually show worth to the community. The ones you can really tell want to be here, no matter what symbol they have beside their name. They tend to have moderate-to-heavy fame amongst circles on-site and off, and generally almost infamous skills of commenting.

I like these guys, you like these guys. They earn their place in everyone's heart. And rightly so.


There are other groups and extensions of each, but these 4 cover generally everyone here. The ones that really make it painful for the rest of us are the type-1 and to a lesser extent, type-3 deviants, who really offer little in the way of community. Generally, this happens to be quite the opposite of their doings. All too often I see astonishingly popular deviants sporting their over-inflated pseudo-manhood around as if it were some kind of badge of pride to validate them and their opinions, where this simply isn't true. While the pageviews thing is nice, it really does serve little purpose to illustrate a deviant's "worth" around the site. For the most part, when I look at views I use them to see if a deviant really is making an effort, or sitting back and watching the proverbial "fat-cash" as it were roll in by the bucketload.

While this may not seem a problem to a lot of people, it certainly strikes me as being one. DeviantART said they wanted to give users more power of customisation, so why not? I have no real want nor need to show other people how many others have been to my page, or see other people's for that matter, and I know a whole swag of others who feel the same way. I know for a fact that it can't be that hard to do in the way of code, a span and a neglected SQL fetch. If I weren't mistaken, I'd say it'd actually benefit deviantART over thousands of pageloads, not only on server strain but on the bandwidth side of things also. While a few hundred bytes may seem miniscule, compare it to how many pages get loaded per minute. Times that by 60, then by 24. Imagine how much bandwidth per day it could save effectively, as well as give the people an extra option to customise the way they view pages.

This works out better for everyone, pages load quicker, servers last longer, less complaints are made, and less squabbling occurs. If I wasn't mistaken, I'd say the site was mad for not implementing it already. It's been flown around the suggestions forum so many times with so many admins saying it wasn't going to happen without giving a reason why.. now here's that chance. Why isn't it going to happen? I'm extremely curious to hear what makes aiding squabbling and pettiness so mandatory for the site to continue supporting. Kind of ludicrous if you ask me.


INTERMISSION

Now if you'd like to take a short intermission to let yourself absorb all I've said, and then commence reading again shortly to finish up with what I'm about to say. Thanks.




Welcome back. Okay, let's get right back into it on a strong point.

DeviantART: Things Are Getting BETTER!

They certainly can be getting better, and in some aspects they already are. However, some things are unfortunately, not. That is ultimately the decision of the guys with their fingers on the buttons. I've made suggestions here, that I can say are supported by more than a few deviants (for the most part, anyway). If they get implemented, so be it. If not, things will be more obvious than before. That said, it's not only up to the site to create this pseudo-perfect world I've described above, rather, the people using it have a large part in this too. In fact, a community functions as exactly that, a community. As with all good teams, the leaders only help implement things, they don't actually carry the weight of the entire body. In other words, it's up to every single one of us to make deviantART the community it more than has the capacity to be.

What this means for the people reading this, no matter what status, is to interact effectively. Don't be one of those who does nothing and expects the world in return, and most certainly, don't be an arsehole while you're around here because no-one wants to deal with it. Causing trouble on the internet earns no-one points for their coolness, nor does it prove anything. Helping out, however, reveals the trueness of one's character. It shows they have dignity in themselves and those around them no matter how feeble their problem may seem, and it shows that they carry pride in what they do.

I know a lot of people will be sitting there vacantly as if to say, "Well okay, I've read it, now what the hell did he just say and why is it involving me?" and expecting me to answer. So, I guess I will. These are the most important parts of the community as I see it:

1.Ability To Interact Effectively

That means, in essence, communication. In order to communicate well one needs to be sure that they actually are willing to do so in the first place. Also, the ability to listen is another key factor in this. It has been said by many great minds that being an effective communicator is the ability to listen to what others have to say, and reacting in kind, and I believe this wholeheartedly. This site is based on the ability to communicate freely with the users who patron it, in many different methods. Use them. One of the best ways to get in touch with the people around this site in an effective manner is to step into any one of the chatrooms on-site, as well as off on our very own IRC network. There's generally always someone around to converse with, so get out there and talk to someone, even if you don't know them. Who knows, you could even find a new friend.


2. Ability To Handle Situations Effectively

This ties in neatly with the one above. Not everyone is going to be adhering to the methodology of interacting effectively, so of course there's going to be hitches in the chain. Not everyone on the site is going to be the nicest person in the world, so don't expect it. However, when someone isn't, don't bite back heavily and get yourself banned. I've been there before, and I can safely say it isn't one of my proudest things I've done while here. If someone does get to you, report them. There are policy administrators in place for that sole purpose, so put them to use.



So, basically advancing communication in a manner that is both effective and worthwhile. This could be through as I suggest, chatting, visiting random deviants, commenting well, or even as I've done here, preparing articles for others to read. It's up to all of us to make this into a house, not just a shack with a fancy paintjob. Comment effectively, interact effectively, exist as a deviant effectively. Do these, and things will fall into place in time.



DeviantART: It’s not only the greatest community in the world, but it’s also what you make of it. I know exactly what I make of it, what about you?
Related content
Comments: 71

LucasVN [2010-02-16 03:10:00 +0000 UTC]

This makes some good points.

The first two problems have been crossposted in my journal:
[link]

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Simon-Xax [2008-06-02 22:06:22 +0000 UTC]

I'm not a big writer type person. Since I lack patience to make the form the best it can be. This really is the type of stuff I like looking into. Just of course too much to reply in this comment. So in effect I'm also faving this too make a viable response. I really appreciate your patience in writing & submiting this.

I now have a headache!

xd

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TsukiFayeElf [2007-05-23 11:41:12 +0000 UTC]

This was a very good article. It was beautifully written and hit quite a few nerves on many perhaps. I greatly enjoyed it! You've really done your research on this; I like that.
Once I get a job and can hold it down I'll start subscribing. I love deviant art. I'm using it as a base for a career selling prints, and tees, and other things with my artwork on them. Deviant art has been my artistic escape. It allows me to be ME!
What has happened is that people find the place and want to be part of it... and that's all well and good! until they get the idea that they and their friends can use it as a messaging platform where they don't really HAVE to post anything to stay on the site as a member That's what annoys me the most. If they want to do that, get a Damn MySpace or AIM...
Deviantart is a place of self expression and creating something new, exaggerated, and beautifully unique in every way! And people have begun to abuse this... People with no artistic ability whatsoever abuse the site, cause trouble for the REAL artists and that pisses them off, so they leave, hence we are stuck with retards and idiots and the world of Deviant Art as we know it is dying before our very eyes.
I've been a Deviant since Apr 24, 2006 and even now I can see the deteriorating. I'm proud of my 2,743 pageviews, but pageviews aren't everything. Out-of-the-box Expression is key, expression is life, and expression is art. That is exactly what DeviantArt stands for...
Aww...crap...Now I'm tired...*falls asleep after ranting like crazy at people*

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Watergirl [2007-05-23 00:28:40 +0000 UTC]

If DA ever close down, u have to give us time to put our art somwhere else!

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tails-sama [2007-03-18 13:13:56 +0000 UTC]

I have to say that was a very intense article for me. Allot of it made me question my motives as an artist, but I know that wasn't your goal. The four types of artists (I guess I'm the quiet archiver type, for the most part), and the comments (ranging from simple compliments to actual critique). I'm majoring in game design, so it often bothers me that I can't afford to get education to improve my knowledge of art or my artistic skills. Nonetheless, your article was very well-written and opened up allot of insight for me.

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TrixieLonestar [2007-01-28 17:20:24 +0000 UTC]

All I can say, you do have talent in writing, and you almost assure me to leave DA earlier than I scheduled. Thank you for sharing this message.
This fact is hard to resist,
but please let the dreamer go on their way, because they will die when they are awaken.

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newklear In reply to TrixieLonestar [2007-01-28 23:07:06 +0000 UTC]

Thank you for reading, and more importantly, appreciating

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Eonity [2005-08-02 17:48:55 +0000 UTC]

WARNING! Extremely long comment follows.

----------
Very well-written article. I like the way you used metaphors and comparisions with more-understandable things to illustrate some of the more abstract ideas you presented in the article.

On the subject matter, I would like to go take it apart and analyse it problem-by-problem, like what you did. I would consider problems 1 and 6 ("Status Means EVERYTHING." and "My Pageviews Make Me A Better DEVIANT!") to be interconnected, as they concern statuses and egos, so I will analyse them first.

I cannot agree with you more, that there are some people who think that, just by being subscribed or having more pageviews, they seem to have some "higher" power over the others. I have seen them, and although a few does have good artworks, however, I think that they have simply overhyped their ego for what they have done. Some of them even have some sort of personality cult around them, which is no good. Go read up about the personality cult the two North Korean leaders (the late Kim Il Sung and his son, Kim Jung Il) has built up around them - they are literally venerated as Gods, even though they contributed nothing other than making the lives of so many North Koreans difficult and trying to paint their shabby, crumbling country in gold. Similarly, I have seen a few deviants that strives hard in order to build that personality cult around them, while actually contributing far less than what their fans and ego could suggest. I don't claim to have seen many of them around, nor can I claim that I have seen really extreme examples similar to the North Korean leaders I have illustrated here, but a few much-less extreme types of them is enough to make enjoying this community difficult. I don't really see that much in being a subscriber - you only get more, glossier features, things that, as you pointed out in problem 2 ("Subscribe NOW!"), should be improved, nor do I see more pageviews to be anything big, other than what it was originally intended for - traffic meters.

Also, reading problem 6 of yours has brought me into self-reflection into how much I'm really worth to the community. Reading the descriptions of the categories you have created, I feel that I fit into the type 3 (the give-nothings) the most, something which I truely regretted after reading this article of yours. Of course, I don't go around asking for more pageviews, though, because, as mentioned, they are just traffic-meters-turned-ego-boosters for some. I do keep track of it, just to know how many people are coming into my page. However, I admit that I have contributed nearly nothing. My comments are admittedly basic (usually), and, as a desktop customiser, the only things I can submit are screenshots, something which some others are doing here as well, as some people see them as artworks (explanation later). I do have some other artistic talent, but I have no way of showing them off (sadly). Your article has made me aim to become someone more worthy to this community, someone who doesn't just waste space here, but to go and really comment and criticise on art, instead of merely saying "I like it" and adding it into your favourites, like what you said.

Back to problem 2. Seriously, like what you said, I don't see the big deal in spending money to subscribe to this community. Having been on a free, one week subscription before, the only draws I saw was the message centre, the ability to have pictures and other nifty details in journals, ability to make own polls. and the advanced browsing features, something which I feel should be part of the basic featureset for everyone. Instead, I feel that subscribers should get more. Enhanced customisability, stylesheets, exclusive content, advanced statistic tracking and management for your own art gallery, even discounts for prints. These are just some ideas that can be implemented in order to further entice more people to subscribe, besides the afore mentioned features which I feel should be made free, and your own personal forum and shoutbox, something that I think is also a draw to subscription but should remain a paid feature. With these, I feel that more people will be willing to spend to subscribe to this community, as they will see it as getting something that is truely value-for-money, even if it ends up costing slightly more.

Problem 3 ("But I Know About ART!"). OK, I don't claim to know everything about art too, but that is personally rapidly changing for me, following my own country's (which is Singapore, if you are to lazy to look at my page) government's call to make us more art-conscious (edvident in the construction of the massive Esplanade - Theatres On The Bay facility here). I personally make time out to visit the free art gallery there, and I always find myself progressively spending more and more time each time whenever I'm there, whether it's the same exhibtion or a different one. I encourage people to do the same too - spend more time with artworks, see what is great with them and what's not, learn to form opinions and give constructive criticism to artworks. Even forming them in your head and not saying them out is good - at least for pratice. When you are ready, write or say it out. Be honest and polite, and never act as if you really know about art as in creating them. This way, artists can learn and improve their future artworks, as opposed to a simple "I like it" or "It sucks. That's all".

I will skip problem 4 as I don't really know quite well what's happening there.

As for problem 5, as I have only been in contact with deviantART for a little over a year only, I'm afraid I can't form too many opinions about it. However, from what you have written, it seems like deviantART is turning into a Windows ME of sorts (who doesn't know that it was the worst operating system ever to exist, being actually Windows 95 added with some shiny gloss?). What people want is more, being able to do more things at once. However, make things overly complicated, and risk alienating the basic users, who will either end up clueless or facing a steep learning curve. What I suggest is an enhanced featureset (incoporating some subscriber features, as I have said earlier), as well as some old, dropped, but useful features, but making them more user-friendly. An advanced user should also be able to make the most out of a featureset, for example, using advanced options to enhance it, while not making it too difficult for the basic user, who just want to use it to get what the feature promises to do done with the results he or she desires.

In some ways I feel that the things you outlined in problem 5 is a bit contradicting to what you pointed out in problem 2. You want more for subscribers, while at the same time, you want more for the non-subscribers. Doing both will need more money. Needing more money means more expensive subscrptions. The only realistic way I see is to implement for subscribers first the enhanced, exclusive featureset to entice more to sign up with little to no increase in price, and then making the enhanced featureset for non-subscribers available later. However, doing so may incur huge monetary losses if not done properly or carefully.

Earlier, I said I'm going to explain why some people think of screenshots as artworks. As such a person myself (formerly, and maybe later), I can explain. These are not normal screenshots, but in fact, works of art. If you notice, almost everyone who puts up only such screenshots have desktops that look really different and artistic. Some consider them to be a form of art themselves, with the wallpapers, themes, software skins, and whatnot displayed as their paintbrushes, and the computer desktop as the canvas. Also, many of them put in quite a lot of work in creating them (I know, I have made several myself), and they want to proudly show them off to others to enjoy too.
----------

OK, end of comment. That was one mammoth comment I have there. I need sleep now, it after midnight...

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brownvelvet-hat [2005-07-30 17:40:51 +0000 UTC]

This was very educational. I'm one of the middle-teens (I'm 16) who don't know anything about art who basically joined to keep up with my friends who use this site. What you said about education was really interesting and got me all excited (heehee) - I would love to learn more about art and writing from some of the awesome people on here.

anyway, thanks for educating a dumb noob about what's happening and all that stuff. :fav:

other stuff: very well-written, kept the readers' interest despite its length, very well-researched, very well-thought-out - it's obvious you put a lot of work into this, and your passion for DA shows. There was a few grammar mistakes, but hey, life goes on.

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smolderingashtray [2005-07-18 05:40:39 +0000 UTC]

I wish I had read this before. My comments were not directed toward these ideas necisarily but something else along similar lines written by you and your reply to me. Now I don't know just what to think so I suppose I will just watch to see what more you come up with (it might very well be good as you seem more cogent now).

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RocketDude [2005-06-23 01:26:56 +0000 UTC]

amazing text
i feel i have to agree with u on most of the points, especially on the benefits of being a subsciber. I aint much of an artist photography is a hobby i enrolled on DA in order to learn and to show any of my progress. i would like to be a subscriber but when im about to click the button i get that itch that doesnt let me buy useless things

anyway as long as we have people like u who care about DA in order to write this kind of text, with both questions and answers, i think DA will have a brighter future

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coshdaddy [2005-05-30 14:59:43 +0000 UTC]

It's hard to really start on this. In the subject of addressing or not addressing the status or current issues regarding the community I usually prefer the latter, that is, not addressing. This is not because I feel that everything is happy-go-lucky wonderful, but I'm very much against complaining for the sake of complaining and even moreso about griping when I have nothing to add to the current situation. This is precisely why I skipped over your first article, sorry to say. It's not that it wasn't well written or didn't introduce some poignant critique about our current situation as deviants (and as senior members and therefore 'role models' of the community), but that is was more scathing and griping than it was informative. This little editorial, though by no means little by any sense of the word, has me more intrigued and, dare I say, inspired than most of the other articles I've read to the same context. Seems that you've picked up the pieces of the last battle and finally put the puzzle together without the use of unbridled force.

A bit long. And this is coming from the Lord of Loquacious here. I think that there are portions that could be trimmed off or at least toned down. Alternatively, the section regarding pageviews is far, far too short. There's no depth, no insight, just a blanket statement about the status, or lack thereof, that pageviews offers. I think a bit more information regarding how pageviews are accumulated and addressing some of the more important things to regard in terms of statistics would've been a much more informative and interesting section. I mean, on that note, it would be better to address the issue that the amount of Comments Received and Comments Given are also not necessarily a measure of popularity or involvement. Things are very deceptive when you really get down to it.

There were a couple of words, here and there, that I thought were awkward. For one, 'whinging' seemed to be 'whining' until I re-read it. I don't know if I should protest the way it was used, or just the words in general. Too much alike, and can be taken to much different contexts. Lots of places I could've seen commas used, for example " ...subscription service, which, if I'm not mistaken, makes up..." Seems to me that is the more proper form. However, commas was something I've never had a great grasp on.

Rather than blather on with general critique and such, I'll address some of the points if I feel I have something pertinent to say.

Status:
This has seemingly become much less of a problem than I had seen before. When I started on the site, most of the ^, $, ` and so on seemed virtually inaccessable. I, for the most part, kept to myself and talked to those who would put up with me on a day to day basis. When I was given a subscription, it was much later in the game and the sub status really hadn't added much. In the shoutbox, which I believe is a perfect microcosm for the site as a whole on any given occasion, having a sub symbol was a big thing. Most others were looked down upon, and many of the regulars would actively count how many non-subscribers to subscribers ratio there was and complain quite frequently. They've since added quite a bit more staff, and quite a bit more symbols. When I first got my senior status, I was bombarded with pageviews and attention from people I'd never seen and constantly addressed in the shoutbox by people who on any other day would've looked away. This bothered me. However, I see now that things have changed. Now, I can go into the box virtually unnoticed, post on the forums without constant agreement and recognition and basically surf around without worrying about the cult of celebrity hanging over my shoulder.

Some people see this as a general decline in the activity and status of senior members, and though that may be true, I also see this as a turn in the status of most deviants. People are becoming numb to status. With so many different symbols, people are basically too bored or confused to care what they mean and just go about their daily business. What points you seem to be making in this section don't seem as pertinent to dA now, to me, as they did a year ago. Take it how you will, it could just be that my general popularity is declining, but I see that status throughout the community is something you have to earn. Hell, there are general members in the community that are much more highly regarded because of their involvement, much more influential because they are good friends with the movers and shakers of the community, and much more popular than I can ever hope to be. Little ol' me.

Subscription:
dA's biggest machine is the subscription services. Everyone in the know has one. It's cool, sheik, and matches EVERY colour. Why don't I have one? Two reasons: I am currently not aware of dA's privacy policy in regards to how credit card information is linked or associated with current user accounts (not Verisign approved) and I haven't been given much in the way of motivation to get one. I understand, and most people who lose their do to, that there's a lot of interesting features you get. Images in journals, lots of other silly journal features, a much, much better message centre, bigger thumbnails, pageview stats. However, besides a few things none of these are more than wants. No one really needs to have any of it, so those cautious about even spending money on a sandwich for lunch because the human body can go a good few weeks without any food (uhm...I'm poor) are going to be hard pressed to spend money on pretty things like that. Also, it feels like with every version they take away some stuff from basic members and through it to subs. I forsee that the site could very well become subscribe only in the near future, as most of these things were available to all members at one point or another. Well, aside from the cooler things.

As to where the money goes, I can only assume a few things. To pay for the insurmountable cost of dA's servers and content, and to pay for the time and life of their staff. If $jark , $spyed , $ spot and the rest of the $Core staff aren't making a decent living off of this site, then I'd be disappointed. To those who devote their full time lives to dA, they should be rewarded with a full time job that PAYS and pays well. If someone on this site isn't in Forbes soon, I'll be disappointed. Hell, other sites are making tons of cash, why can't one of the best sites on the internet fund its founders properly. So, if people think that this is an over-zealous, capitalist, right-winged point of view that I support a corporate dA, then you're right. BUT, I don't want this to come at the cost of the community. Let's face it, without the community there would be no corporation, so that is the MOST important thing about the site.

Comment/Critique:
I believe there should be more support of =splat 's initiative. Every day I'm more and more shocked at the general, diplorable state in which the comments have been sliding to. Hell, now I see that most deviations are just faved without any comments at all. That just makes me sad, really. However, on a more regular basis I am seeing good critiques lately. Check out some of the DDs and you'll see some generally in depth comments, and on writing there's more and more critical eyes appearing every day. Things are getting better on some ends and worse on others. The worse, however, is outweighing the lot by quite a bit.

Personal Moderation:
I agree with that statement. I'd like to think that I am fairly good at moderating my own activity.

Missing Features:
To be honest, I hardly noticed half of those features were gone. I'm sure I'd remember them and say "Ahh, yeah, that was cool." but to be honest if I can't remember what features are gone than I find no point in really having them around. I'd like there to be more thought on much more practical applications rather than simple, silly ones, to be honest. I've been milling on a suggestion for a few weeks, but I'm searching around to see if it's been made first.

Pageviews:
This is one of those ongoing problems with dA. One of the things that will never cease now that the site has gained such a bout of popularity. Statistics. If it's not one, it's the other, and people are constantly trying to build a skyscraper of numbers so that they can stand on top and proclaim their glory to all around. Even I admit that I caught that bug back in my original days of the shoutbox. I wanted the numbers more than the company, but then the addiction set in and it became about the company and community and the numbers simply fell into place at the time. I've never been a stickler about pageviews. By the time I was on the site for a year I had less than 2,000 pageviews and 40 deviations. In the last 2 years I've submitted 11 deviations and have gotten almost 5 times that many pageviews. To me, this is not an accomplishment. It shows that my traffic is based on random, or social occurances and in no way based on my art, which is the primary reason I started here. It's sad to think that now my free time is so limited I can't submit anymore, but it also shows that talent and merit is not based on pageviews. I'd have far less pageviews if that was any indication. The shoutbox probably grabbed more than half of my current pageviews, another 2,000 I'd contribute to my clique on the site, and the rest may have stumbled upon my gallery.

Most people consider me to be the What-goes-around-comes-around type of character, but I've always wanted to think of myself as the quiet acheiver. I don't like to make a big fuss, but I like to get involved. I'm not here to get popular and gain status and pageviews. I'm here to waste time during work...I mean have fun. Yeah, that's the one.

In closing:
The intermission comes a bit late. You're basically displaying most the fireworks, then taking a break just to have two roman candles at the end. Not a very strong structure.

This is, however, I very strong article. Good read, though long, and has a wealth of history and information. There's lengths and lengths some people can go on about the site in general, which just shows how involved some people are in this community. Some say it's sad, but considering how depressed I am at the general state of the world wide web, this site is actually a glimmering beacon that things can sometimes work out. No, it's not perfect, but perfection is impossible. There's always bumps on the road, you just have to get over it. I'd go on more, but I already fear the length of this comment.

Nice work, `newklear . Glad I finally found time to comment this. Things are getting better.

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xgod-0 [2005-05-02 12:54:00 +0000 UTC]

Quite an intersting insight buddy, Glad your wrote it.

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disguy2k [2005-04-29 15:39:18 +0000 UTC]

Very well written once again Ben. I agree with most of it, especially about the user types. That bit is spot on. Some bits are still a tad on the negative side. I suppose that is really the real issue. DAv2 was a way of life for us long time deviants, and there's still a big void that hasn't been filled. And the salt in the wounds, is as DA grows, it seems to only attract 1 worthwhile artist/community whore out of 50, 100, 1000 people?

I'm liking the new features tho, and will try to make a bit more of an effort to be a good Type 4

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sonicspaz101 [2005-04-25 01:05:03 +0000 UTC]

Truly well written piece here. Not just a rant, or a whine like a lot of these "reforms" seem to be. This was well thought out, and had dashes of well placed humor. You put forth many MANY topics that certainly are relevant to the way that dA is run. It's something to think about. Wonderful job by the way, if I didn't say so on your last piece.
sam

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DenaSetsuko [2005-04-13 14:02:19 +0000 UTC]

A quick comment about the subscription:

You might have spyware and that's why you still get popup ads. Spyware comes up no matter what once it's installed into your computer and it may be a bitch to get out TD

I NEVER get popup ads and I've been subsribing for months. I also removed all my spyware. If I didn't have the search feature, the extras on the journal, the large thumbnails, the cool star next to my name....dA would just be "okay" again X_x I don't even want to go back to the old way.

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girlonthem00n [2005-04-10 07:29:41 +0000 UTC]

First off let me just say that, that was a wonderfully written piece. I had discovered your first piece and read the entire thing and all the comments ...including that entire argument that I still don't quite understand and found my way to this one. I have been browsing on deviantart since mid 2002 and I eventually decided to join in early 2003. I never have had a subscriber although I would if I had the money simply because I am still here. I find that in itself amazing since there has only been one other site that has held my interest so long. I remember back, before subscribing, when there where large thumbnails in my message center, and I almost cried when they took that away. I just thought I would bring up a couple things to see what people think.

I think that if the dA admin put new options in our viewing settings such as whether or not we could view things like status, pageviews, prints available (esp. for subscribers) links, and the other things mentioned that people don't want to see (forgive me I'm forgetting already as I've just spent the better part of 20 minutes reading this all). If we were able to choose whether or not we want to see those things it would help calm (maybe thats not the best word) some people down. If we were able to choose which features we wanted on our page instead of the ones that we think are useless it might also help as well.

But I don't even know how to go about doing that. It could be incredibly hard to code and would probably cause the cost of running the site to go up even further. Anyways I just wanted to try to bring up some possible solutions instead of just saying what everyone else has already said.

I'm sure other people have better possible solutions than I, and probably more realistic ones. I would love to hear them.

And on a final note What would I do if deviantart were to suddenly be gone?
-I know for a fact the amount of time on my computer would be cut dramatically. I would be forced to find another place to put my works in hopes of getting critiques and being the lazy person I am, I probably would stop submitting my works to the internet.

Please forgive any spelling or gramatical errors as I never was really good in english classes anyways.

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Xio101 [2005-04-09 03:58:57 +0000 UTC]

wow...Its amazing... You really point out a lot of things in this....
It makes me think about wich one I really am....
and I don't like the answer...
I'm gonna fav this and try to get as many ppl as I can to read it....* thinks:chain letter....*

Very good messege!
If nothing else you've changed me I started reading this and the ferther I got the more I found myself becomeing a better Deviont.
I will no longer just say Hey thats really cool! or "Wow I really like that"
GOOD JOB!!

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noseeme [2005-04-07 20:45:46 +0000 UTC]

I agree with many things in this article, especially your views on the apparent importance of status in the community. It seems the deviants with the most page views are always the most popular ones, and the most highly regarded.
I hardly submit anything anymore, but I stay here because I enjoy watching this place grow, and see the dynamics of the community evolve. Occasionally, I creep into the forums, and spit on people a little bit. That's always fun.
I don't really want to digress from the topic much anymore, so I'll just finish up.
I haven't heard some of the points you made stated publicly before, but I know I have thought about most before. You managed to put things into words very well, and express some very poignant points.
I think this submission is worthy of a favorite, very good job.

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ndifference [2005-04-06 16:32:30 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, that about sums it up. I'm going to start pointing rookies in this direction.

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ndifference [2005-04-05 23:25:19 +0000 UTC]

Khrist almighty, I better go pack a lunch. Be back later.

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io-moth [2005-04-04 10:37:41 +0000 UTC]

FINALLY someone willing enought to open their eyes to see what DA is really about

the article is well written and has a proven stance agaisnt DA and what it is all about now i can remember when you comemnt on a piece of work it was a REAL comemnt not a or shit like that it was constructive and positive

and the suscribe now!!!!

so we dont get those little adverts and annoying other attachments, i really thinks its not worth getting a sub, but thats my own personal statment ive had 2 subs it was given to me i did not ask for them i appreciated the two people whom gave it to me ,anyhoo back to the writing.

all they do is you can see thumbnails and improve the journals etc etc a waste of money really cause you still get ads

and the shoutbox, god heaven forbid me, i will rant for the next possible 10 minutes and i will desstroy your page but yes its all nice and freindly in there most of the "time" but what can you do, yes more admins but no one is going to do that we had them for at least a week and they had all but gone now


What would you do, if deviantART suddenly disappeared? If deviantART became a shadow in the past, never to be seen again?

i'll collapse and die

but no it would be a sad loss to see it go if it does really happen i think its too much of a good thing to go to waste really but i could be so wrong


personally i think you should address this to one of those "top" people like cough, jark, personally i think he would find it intresting and maybe enlighting to see, he can not ignore this thus if he does, he does not give a toss about his community

Problem Six: My Pageviews Make Me A Better DEVIANT!

no it makes u brag about urself, its wonderful to see my own pageviews going higher and higher, its nice to know that people like my art and such but i dont go mental and go YAY :ecxited: throw a party emote shit in my journal, if some one points it out im like nice

to be a BETTER DEVIANTART, join the community, help and educate but thats me saying it


clearly written with passion and well thought out

well done

sorry for the spelling, drunken night destroy my co ordination and spelling cells

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Rubycored [2005-04-03 17:57:41 +0000 UTC]

I only manage to read the paragraph on Pageviews (because time doesn't permit)

I want to say yeah, No3 pisses me off, i get journals after journals and threads after threads bitching about the lowness of their views

But comparing those to my own. I might be forming myself another group: 5-Activity whores , although number 4 suits me in some degree but i only do (on occasions) deep critics (i adoped to the phrase "People ask for criticizms, but they only want praise" or if they really mean they want deep critics)

all i gotta say right now unfortunately i'm NOT of a commenting brain

you could give an account about people bitching/leaving because they broke 1 rule , or replying to ^devart 's note, no reply = leave , they sicken me A LOT!






~Rubycored ~

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hokuto [2005-03-28 22:25:26 +0000 UTC]

Damn, you made me realize how much I miss those devpacks. Those were so handy - a way to organize your favorites as well as your own gallery.

Anyway. That was a fantastic article. Like *azarath , I've been here since about 2002 (in fact - I think she joined just a couple of months after I did, and we started watching each other, and have stalked each other ever since and that is how I found this lovely editorial), and to think of not having DA - it would be a gigantic hole. Even when my devwatch is empty and I could theoretically be off doing other things (like - homework), I'll float around the front page looking for interesting thumbnails (that's how I've met a lot of people I consider really good friends on here) or visiting random love upon my friends' pages. Without this site, I wouldn't be the artist I am - I might not even seriously draw at all, as I only took up pencil, pen, and marker to have a go at illustrating some characters, and previously never thought that I could have the skills I have now (though the nature and quality of those skills is up for debate). I've learned so much here from other people's helpful comments and willingness to answer questions, and even guide me through my first time with Photoshop while I talked with them over AIM... And unfortunately I've seen many people leave DA, for various reasons (many of which you've outlined); it's easy for me to understand why. Although I wouldn't call myself a good artist, I think that by now I'm at least marginally competent in a certain style, and the lack of meaningful comments on work I've put days of effort into is incredibly discouraging at times. I go through periods where I feel like I'm butting my head against a wall, trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and not knowing... But even so I - can't bear to leave. What would I do? Join Sheezy? XO (I can't even stand the name, it sounds ridiculous.)

I think you've pretty much covered a lot of the basic things which could be done to make DA a more friendly and helpful place for everyone. Here's hoping something actually gets done.

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azarath [2005-03-28 19:17:36 +0000 UTC]

how did i not see this article sooner? has my head been up my butt?! The corresponding article as well... i have to say, i'm with you in this. I've been here since 2002. I've been thru all the ups and downs, all the good and bad, and hell, i'm still here. I freakin love this place, for better or worse. The changes that went though, with the advertiseing, moeny-making, and everything, made me kind of angry at first, but i realized it's what DA needed to keep going. It's a fact, even if a sad one.

What would you do, if deviantART suddenly disappeared? If deviantART became a shadow in the past, never to be seen again?

Man, i would be sad. This place is the reason my art has progressed in the last 2 1/2 years. The encouragement, the comments, the critiques, and the friends i've made here have the biggest help and inspiration to me. i can safely say that without DA, i probably would have given up doing art quite awhile ago.

DeviantART: It’s not only the greatest community in the world, but it’s also what you make of it. I know exactly what I make of it, what about you?

Through most of my time here, i would comment on people's works, not saying much. A lot of people couldn't take constructive criticism, getting defensive, or taking it personally, as i saw when other people would make comments. a 15-minute-long sketch of mine made it on the the DTFs once, not long after i got here, and i watched a full-scale war break out in the comment thread. After seeing that, i tried to keep most constructive crits to myself and prayed to god that i'd never ger another DTF again.

But i keep seeing hard-working people, younger people mostly, who work hard and never get any help at all here. So recently i've pretty much dedicated my time here to helping everyone i can. I've been having issues with my own works again (as in i hate them and...well let's not get into that here! ), and helping out otehr people has made me pretty much forget it, and feel better. If DA is what i make of it, then it'll be a place where people can show their works and get the recogintion and help they need and deserve. And i plan on doing it one person at a time. Also i want to show people that your number of pageviews don't make you a better or worse person. I feel awful that people are like "wow someone with 40,000 pageviews has bestowed me with their honor!!". I want to show that pageviews don't make you a celebrity. I've been here for 2 1/2 years, i participate in the forums, the shoutbox, i run my own club and help others, i watch about 400 people and comment actively, i've recently done my first tutorial and plan for others. My drawings on their own average 100 views a piece. Obviously something is amiss here. I believe it's my involvment that brings people to my page. That's all it means. I wish people could see that: like you said, you give what you get.

And I can only imagine how people react to you the since you have one of those little senior member marks in front of your name.

After reading this, it makes me feel better to know i'm not alone in this fight. I'm gonna +fav: this and make everyone i know on DA read this. Keep fighting the good fight, my good man! :woot:

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Gonzale [2005-03-25 13:07:29 +0000 UTC]

wo00ow, th1s 1S n1cE !

kidding. yes, i agree on most things you've said. personnaly, i'm not really caring about the pageviews, but more by the watchers i get, because i like to have opinions about my work to progress. but there, as you've said, comes the comments problem. this is really bugging and pissing me off... at the beginning, when i arrived here, i had intelligent watchers who didn't need the advanced critique thing to post interesting comments. now it's.. meh, i've been using "advanced critique encouraged" thing for my last deviations. i mean, what's the point of writing "nice pic!" ?? hmm, that'll always be a mystery to me.
for your deviant examples, yes, i totally see what you mean, i've deleted from my watchlist the first category since a loooong time, i'm supporting the second category, i'm a talent hunter
anyway. i don't really agree with what the dictionnary says about art, and since we're on DEVIANT-art, the things here should be innovative. i'm just tired of all these anime crap, and fetishist vulgar uninteresting things having success and DDs, as waay more talented persons don't get any pageviews, as you've said.

anyway (again), very good article, this has been tough for my french brain, but i understood and appreciated it.

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fangedfem [2005-03-25 02:28:44 +0000 UTC]

Bravo my friend - a most interesting and well written article here I truly enjoyed reading it and agreed with many aspects

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OllieTeo [2005-03-23 04:04:30 +0000 UTC]

the future of dA is everyone getting pissed off and leaving since the popular artists are getting banned or have also pissed off and left.

[and I hope that's not actually going to happen.]

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PsychoAssassin [2005-03-17 06:31:50 +0000 UTC]

That was very interesting. You must have taken a looong time to write that and research it.It was long, but it informed me of a lot of things.

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Destructionist [2005-03-16 04:27:00 +0000 UTC]

I long read for my tired eyes, but it was certainly worth it. You were clear and concise is making this monstrosity. It is certainly clear that a lot of time and effort was put into this, and I don't think anyone else has examined dA this close to date. You addressed a lot of issues that I have wanted and attempted to, well done.

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Misaniovent [2005-03-16 02:10:39 +0000 UTC]

You seem like a zealous doctor; you give the right prescriptions, perhaps for ailments which are not here. I always say that I, however, have not been here for nearly as long as many other deviants, so I don't have the perspective to see how things have deteriorated.

Good work.

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devilishlycrazy [2005-03-15 12:41:37 +0000 UTC]

ok so 20 mins later I eventually stop reading. u gave me a headache ben damn u lol. well u already know I agree with u on what you've said, but i think the things that caught my attention more than anything was the ability to handle situations effectively, the more pageviews & the status means everything. ok im going to start rambling soon so i'll just some up what i'm thinking. basically people are just getting too damn egotistical, and are looking down on everyone "below" them, even if they have never actually spoken to this person in their life. I'm seeing more & more comments & messages on pages just simply saying 'ya u suck ur shit y r u evn here' etc etc, when these people have as much right to be on deviantART as anyone else. Who made people with subscriptions run the world? Let's all bow down to subscribers!!! sry sry getting carried away again hehe. anyway love your work Ben, you did good on this, will fav it, try to get the message out to people!

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snowunmasked [2005-03-15 09:29:32 +0000 UTC]

Long.
Long.
LONG.


Overdue.

*opens notepad*

Okay. Lame, but again, Ben. Exceedingly well-structured. I like how you bring forth the definitions of "deviantART" and "deviant". Smooth and effortless tactic to opening your topic, and providing the source for further elaboration, as well as excellent reference for various parts of the editorial as it progresses; linking in web-format to all your points without having to repeat yourself. Very clean and professional :]

Now, I've skimmed through all the comments, and we've already discussed some points early on, and have agreed. Regarding the problems you've observed, it's Problems One and Six that interest me the most.

It's not because of my current status, but I still believe that status ought to serve as example, like it always should have been. Like we've talked about before, in order to achieve near-enough perfection, the solutions to problems one and three could be merged. Education. While I respect the golden rule in becoming a senior, I think [like we've both said], that this rule is working against itself. While we can offer some sort of guideline as to what makes a "model deviant", per se, perhaps we can strengthen methods in monitoring, to keep wannabe-deviants in check, plainly put :] Incidentally, this works well for Point Four as well; considering that once there's some sort of guideline [for the model deviant], then there'd be no need for "self moderation" [as that clearly doesn't work, like you've said].

About pageviews. I've given this some thought. I take it you know of gallery stats. Maybe we can have something of the sort, except deviant stats. However you cannot chose to hide this, unlike gallery stats. In addition, perhaps there can be some way to present the stats while reinstituting what the stats actually mean. While pageviews really doesn't mean much aside from indicating one's "popularity", once put together with deviant/deviation comment stats, AND PERHAPS COMMENT RATINGS [where the FUCK did they go?], it can give better insight as to what sort of deviant one might be. I, for one, check these stats all the time before I decide whether or not to interact with someone. Why waste my time commenting on someone's artwork, however good it may be, when I see that they have, like, what, 200 deviant/deviation comments, while they've been here for 900 years? This suggestion may waver a little from the original point, but this is just a thought that occured :]





ya :]

... and now I'm hungry and my fingers are freezing.

DISCUSS?

k <3

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newklear In reply to snowunmasked [2005-03-15 09:34:46 +0000 UTC]

We discuss this AIM stylee, k? :]


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snowunmasked In reply to newklear [2005-03-15 10:07:52 +0000 UTC]

I DON'T SEE ANY DISCUSSING >:[

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newklear In reply to snowunmasked [2005-03-15 10:48:34 +0000 UTC]

WE KIND OF ARE! >:[



:[''

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snowunmasked In reply to newklear [2005-03-15 15:12:56 +0000 UTC]

Die :[

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inebriate [2005-03-11 02:29:35 +0000 UTC]

I think you underestimate the power of idiots en masse.

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newklear In reply to inebriate [2005-03-12 04:53:00 +0000 UTC]

Ah, but I don't. Idiots are what keep guys like me amused constantly, and keep me writing this shit. I pay homage to them, in reality

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MattGAllan [2005-03-10 18:15:41 +0000 UTC]

eep how long
Ill read it when i have some time :/

We all love deviantart

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BronzeRocket [2005-03-10 17:14:08 +0000 UTC]

to be honest, i skimmed. i'm painfully lazy like that. instead of reading this behemoth, i'd rather discuss it with you. find me on aim sometime. ignore the away message. i'm usually really there.

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newklear In reply to BronzeRocket [2005-03-14 08:49:42 +0000 UTC]

I'll have to take you up on that offer sometime, Todder. I'll keep an eye out for when I get a minute spare

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polarix [2005-03-10 06:46:22 +0000 UTC]

I read it. I knew what you were talking about.

I didn't see anything I disagreed with. Anything that makes what the admins are doing more transparent is my vote for top priority. It restores faith in the system.

But nobody in their right mind would consider me an authority .



And yes, deviantART will die. Probably about the time something better comes along to take its place.

It would be truly tragic if it died before that point, because when I think of the broad impact of the internet on society, I think of things like deviantART. It really is that good.

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bookdiva [2005-03-09 23:17:49 +0000 UTC]

This is being faved on my other account, sweet new klear.

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newklear In reply to bookdiva [2005-03-14 08:50:39 +0000 UTC]

Thank ye' Lorri, you've no idea how much you've helped me write this and get it up. Really one of the key players


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bookdiva In reply to newklear [2005-03-14 16:35:19 +0000 UTC]

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fimsy [2005-03-09 11:32:43 +0000 UTC]

h0 lordy... after spending what was about 10mins reading that (i'm a quick reader) I am truly inspired...so i've decided to start a CULT!!


You're a god ben. I agree with everything you've said, and I'm glad you've spent the time and effort to spell it out to people what dA is now, and what we all hope it can grow into in the future, if we all put the effort in.


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rayk [2005-03-09 10:02:32 +0000 UTC]

Even thought I've been here for slightly more then 1 year, I still feel and understand that I can really relate to the points you discussed. Even though this place has been getting better, to me it still feels like it's been going more downhill over my year on DA then uphill. I guess I can say it's feeling more alienating day by day, there isn't much to look forward to, no "new features coming" to get exicted over and maybe even the the level of art degrading ( personal observation from some of the personal favourite artist leaving and becoming "dead" so to say ).

As for the suggestions forum, from my personal experience it feels like posting in there is like "a deaf man's plee in a desert". Just seems like none of the DA people actually take anything on board or care about. No sort of thing like "Yep, we have that on the list!", hmm maybe a DA suggested features that are possible to implement and will be implemented would be great? Dunno, I think it would be.

I know I'm gonna do my part to get this place better, I'm gonna start posting up advertisment around our little art block at uni to get more people joining. I've found that most artist at uni have never even heard of DA, I think it will be good to get more actuall artist from the real world to join.

I really thank you for taking the time to write this editorial, I think it could not have been said better. I'm going to add it to my favourites list, maybe more people will see it and read it. Thank you.

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KylieKeene [2005-03-09 08:37:32 +0000 UTC]

very well written, i support it and understand it all. you've brought up some good issues and supported them well. you've layed it out clearly and couldn't have said it any more simpler.

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RomaV [2005-03-09 07:59:18 +0000 UTC]

Reading through this had me a bit stumped here and there - for instance, no matter how good the features get, I'm unlikely to be able to subscribe because A) I have no money of my own (not enough to pay a few hundred ruppees anyway) and B)my parents would never do it for me (they would disapprove).

Also, ads never bothered me much. I mean, I looked at the link you provided showing an old DA, and while I agree the pages are a teensy bit more crowded it's not something I worry over.

I do worry over your comments regarding DeviantArtists... I write, or rather, every so often I put pen to paper. I'm not very good at it - I mean, I'm not bad, but I'm not good. I comment, and while I'm slightly better at that I have some huge goof-ups. I take criticism mostly well, and give it as fairly as I can - but I'm not an expert and I mostly distrust my instincts on the matter. As for visual art, my comments are strictly kept down too: "Ooh, pretty". Really. At most I might ask a question about the content. But not often. I mean, I get what you say about educating oneself to know these things, but while I make progress in some ways, I don't in others.

My output is not fantastic, my comment rate is not overwhelming, I know zero seniors here and know zero about DA policy. I turn up at the Books Forum every so often, but no more.

I don't always handle bad crticism well, either. I mean, I used to think I did handle it well, but last night had a huge blow-up over a... ok. Never mind. The point is, yesterday I lost it, and the fact that it was personal as well as intellectual made it merely worse. I feel... I don't know.

I don't fit into any of your categories, and that bothers me. You look at extremes. Where do we average people fit in? Are we not allowed to, because we don't do this with all our hearts and souls? If I don't follow your advice here - or at least, not all of it - does that make me a bad deviant? (That sentence is hilariously funny, but you know what I mean.)

It's nice to see you care (and I'm glad I followed tangledweb's link back here) but I think some of the things you say need... er. Fine-tuning?

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