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Nilopher — Hell doesn't exist?
Published: 2014-06-02 03:03:27 +0000 UTC; Views: 2681; Favourites: 22; Downloads: 0
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Hell doesn’t exist?The punishment of the wicked… what people call hell.
Definitions of hell:
--- The place or state of punishment of the wicked after death
--- Hell is a place of suffering and punishment in the afterlife.
--- Hell is a place of eternal damnation for those who rejected the Gospel of Christ.
Several things don’t click in my mind when I hear about hell that’s going on right now and eternal suffering. I had my own list but found another in Review and Herald, 1963, more complete and it had some of the points I wanted to talk about:
The wicked don’t have this gift: “they won’t see life” (john 3: 36) “no murderer has eternal life in him.” (1 john 3:15).
We know that we are not immortal, because only God has immortality (1 Timothy 6:15-16) Wicked people cannot have eternal life (1 john 3:15) because eternal life is a gift from God (Rom 6: 23) to everyone who hears His voice and follows Him (John 10:27-28), and it’s a gift (a reward) given to the saved when he comes to take us with Him to heaven (temporary residence) (Revelations 22:12).
Wicked people will not be suffering eternally because they’re not immortal and God will destroy them, that’s why we read in the bible that:
The wicked shall perish (Psalm 37:20), will be destroyed (Psalm 145:20), will die (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23, Romans 1:32, Romans 6:21, James 1:15), will be devoured by the fire (Psalm 21:9), shall not be (Psalm 37:10), shall be cut off and rooted out (Proverbs 2:22, Psalm 37:9, Psalm 37:34), shall be ashes (Malachi 4:3), into smoke shall they consume away (Psalm 37:20), as wax melteth before the fire (Psalm 68:2), shall be punished with everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), will be burn up and it shall leave them neither root nor branch (Malachi 4:1, Matthew 13:30)
The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18-19.)
Eternal life it’s a gift from God, (Rom 6: 23).
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." ~ John 3:16
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." ~ John 6:40
There are two options. To perish or to receive eternal life. Eternal life vs Eternal death, simple as that. Both are eternal consequences but one is life and the other is death.
If you reject God you reject life, for the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). So if the penalty is death, why would they burn for all eternity?
They need to be immortal to be burning for all eternity. But they cannot be immortal if they rejected life.
An eternal torment would immortalize the sin, suffering and pain.
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” ~ Revelation 21:4
Even the demons know they will be destroyed:
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. ~ Mark 1:24
And Satan also knows that he will be destroyed (Hebrews 2:14) with the fire and will be no more
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. ~ Ezekiel 28:18-19
In other words he, won’t be eternally burning. And if the devil—the father of sin— won’t be eternally burning it’s illogical to think that wicked people will be tortured for all eternity.
Jesus sacrificed Himself because he wants to “to put away sin” (Hebrews 9:26). Not immortalize it in an eternal display of death and suffering.
What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.~ Nahum 1:9
He will put an end to sin. The devil, his demons and sin will be no more. This clearly takes out the possibility of an eternal suffering.
But why the bible speaks about an eternal fire?
The bible presents us an: everlasting fire (Mathew 25:41), unquenchable fire (Mathew 3:12).
The fire is eternal, everlasting, unquenchable, because it comes from an eternal God (Romans 1:20), but what burns in it is not eternal, so once the eternal fire completes its work, it is no longer needed.
This eternal fire brings everlasting destruction. (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by this eternal fire.
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire”~ Jude 1:7
Jerusalem was destroyed by this unquenchable fire:
Jeremiah' prophesy:
“But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” ~ Jeremiah 17:27
This was fulfilled in: 2 Chronicles 36:19-21.
Isn’t hell burning now?
No.
Hell is not a place where wicked people go when they die.
The lake of fire will be on earth, that’s why it can’t be burning now, nor will it burn forever.
There is a day that cometh (Malachi 4:1), the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7), until that day heavens and earth are reserved unto fire. They will burn but not before that time.
When Jesus comes those whose names are written on the book of life will be saved.
The dead in Christ shall rise first, and together with those that are alive they will meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
Those who are not saved, will remain in this earth, dead for a thousand years until the second resurrection. (Revelation 20:5). The resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
“Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.” ~revelation 20:7-9
On that day, the wicked—including Satan and his angels— will suffer the second death (Revelation 20:6).
“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.” ~ Malachi 4:3
They will be destroyed; the earth will be cleansed from sin and will once again be our home. As it was meant to be in a beginning.
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”~ Revelation 21:1
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Comments: 83
Yeah, you're right, Hell doesn't actually exist if you pay attention to the Bible. However, what you seem to have missed is that neither does the Devil, at least in anything like the way he's commonly thought of. He's a composite of several unrelated characters, none of them terribly relevant and one of them actually still serving God even as he takes the title of Satan (which is actually a job title, roughly equivalent to "laywer" today, and yes that's hilarious in this context). Frankly, actually reading the Bible has apparently caused quite a few conversions to atheism. It makes one wonder...
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The "edit comment option" seems to be gone, so I'm just going to say I did some more research and "Satan" is probably closer to "devil's advocate" in meaning, at least in the way that term is normally used rather than literal meaning (actually advocating for someone dumb enough to incite rebellion against someone powerful enough to create an entire universe is a sure sign of insanity unless they succeeded somehow, and the Devil very much didn't)
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Firstly I wanna say that God made us humans and the angels and because he loves us gave us free will. I personally believe exists, but not in the way we think (boiling cauldrons and fiery pits). God does not send "sinners" to hell and "righteous" people to heaven. On the contrary it's our decision where to go in the end on account of the free will. Faithful people want to be near God (heaven) who is the source of life. The Devil chose to leave God's side, he chose to leave the source of life and thousands other angels (aka demons) followed him. The chose to, let's say form a hell. The chose to go there. So do we. When we die if we want to be near God , meaning we're good, sharing, caring etc. we'll go to heaven because we want it. And I dont believe sinners, Lucifer and the demons will be "destroyed" as you put it because God loves all of his creations. Instead he longingly awaits for the Devil, the demons and all that have strayed from Him to relent. In the even the dark prince will return to God's side, and then and only then sin will cease to exist!
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Well, first off, "the Devil" as commonly understood doesn't really exist in the Bible, but your position ignores an awful lot of the Bible anyway so that's a minor nitpick at best. Anyway, my relenting won't be so much "join His side" as "leave this universe to that bastard and His cronies because actually fighting Him isn't worth the effort". (Shut up, if you don't have parents then you were born outside of wedlock and are thus a bastard, and Mary wasn't wedded to Him so Jesus is technically a bastard too)
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this might sound strange, but a way my mother described this (for some strange reason) is:
Hell is a death with the knowledge of never seeing what humans would become.
and:
Heaven is dying with the knowledge that you will live again and see the children of humanity.
I'm sorry, this was rather random, I saw this and felt the need to say this.
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As an Annihilationist I get some of your points.
John 3:16- For God so loved the world that He gave His only son so that whoever believed in him would never die but have eternal life.
It implies that whoever doesn't believe in god (including those who claim to follow God but do not carry out His instructions to love thy neighbor) will not have eternal life but will instead die.
It implies the recently dead face one of three things:
1. Going to Heaven if you are virtuous.
2. Going to Purgatory if you tried to live a virtuous life (or were living a "virtuous life" on moral standards lower than God's).
3. Complete cessation of existence if you died unrepentant of your sins (especially if you're unrepentant of Mortal Sins, which are sins you commit with malicious intent against others).
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Or maybe the bible is just a book cobbled together centuries after the last events in it supposedly took place and isn't true?
The commands its god gives are often hateful and carrying them out today would involve crimes against humanity.
The events it says have taken place are either not present in any texts that have been found, provably false, or incredibly improbable.
It's just a relic of history like the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Just try to be a decent person and if any god has a problem with that, then that's not a just god.
The kind of irrational fanaticism found in this article is ridiculous.
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I'd like to point out that this deviation is actually railing against fanatics who don't understand what they claim to be their religion. Their fate is Purgatory at best, and many of them fall short of even that. Such is the fate of the False. *is... not religious, or atheist, or anything that can be summed up easily in a single word*
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Purgatory was a Catholic invention. Dante's Inferno was a political piece meant to (among other things) attack the Catholic Church.
There's no evidence to support any of the christian religions (or any religion) and the contradicting evidence means the religious are denying reality.
I have no complaint with individual believers, but this kind of ignorance is harmful to all.
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Look, I know there are very few things in the Bible that are supported by any record other than the Bible itself. That's not even the point here. The point is that the common view of Hell doesn't exist in the Bible, and was pretty much invented wholesale by Dante Algieri. That is the point Nilopher was making, and saying that the Bible is grade-A horseshit just makes you look like an asshole. This work isn't for people like you at all; it's for people who would actually believe everything in the Bible, including the stuff that contradicts itself, but haven't actually read the Bible, and thus don't know that it varies greatly from what most Christians actually believe. There are a lot of those people, and they will automatically call you a heretic even though that's not the correct term (a heretic is a member of your own religion who disagrees with your Church on at least one matter; an infidel is a member of an opposing religion, and a heathen is a member of no religion. And Now You Know *rainbows*)
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"saying that the Bible is grade-A horseshit just makes you look like an asshole."
No, it's fact. Anyone taking it as anything approaching truth either hasn't read it or is delusional.
"This work isn't for people like you at all; it's for people who would actually believe everything in the Bible, including the stuff that contradicts itself, but haven't actually read the Bible, and thus don't know that it varies greatly from what most Christians actually believe."
What's the difference between a harmful lie and a harmful lie?
Why are you demonizing facts?
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Demonizing facts? Here's a fact for you: nobody is going to be swayed by your comment. Anyone reading it either already agrees with you or isn't willing to listen to atheists. That's why I'm calling you out as an asshole; the only thing your comment will accomplish is making people upset, because the people you're actually aiming it at aren't willing to give you the time of day. Here's some more facts, letting people continue to believe something silly isn't a problem until it affects their actual decisions in a negative way, and "don't be a dick" is part of the doctrine of pretty much every major religion. And here's another fact: some of the things in the Bible may be a harmful lie (Leviticus 18:22 comes to mind) but they're outnumbered by the things like "don't murder people, like, ever" and "this dude killed an army with a donkey's jawbone, look at how awesome he is". Yet another fact: "harmful" and "lie" aren't binary; what this deviation says actually reduces falsehood, explaining what the Bible actually says vs. what most people, Christian or otherwise, think it says, and even though much of the Bible is allegorical (as in, not even meant to be truth in the first place) that's still useful information for historical purposes if nothing else. Here's one final fact: there are atheists who are only distinguishable from religious fundamentalists by the specific doctrine they support, and everything so far points to you being one of them. I'd say goodbye, but I get a feeling this isn't over.
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"letting people continue to believe something silly isn't a problem until it affects their actual decisions in a negative way"
Like believing in Hell.
"And here's another fact: some of the things in the Bible may be a harmful lie (Leviticus 18:22 comes to mind) but they're outnumbered by the things like "don't murder people, like, ever" and "this dude killed an army with a donkey's jawbone, look at how awesome he is"."
And the bad parts include orders to commit genocide, orders to commit murder for just about anything people do in the modern day, a huge amount of bigotry, etc. You might as well be picking corn kernels out of a mountain of shit.
"that's still useful information for historical purposes if nothing else."
Bullshit. Creationists alone prove it's got no historical value if considered truth.
" there are atheists who are only distinguishable from religious fundamentalists by the specific doctrine they support, and everything so far points to you being one of them."
Atheism is not believing in gods. There's no doctrine or dogma. You're talking about anti-theism, which is completely different. Just because somebody's right about one thing (like the complete lack of evidence to support the existence of a god/gods and the result (oyhus.no/AbsenceOfEvidence.htm… )) doesn't mean they can't be wrong about others. So your pathetic smear attempt doesn't work.
"I'd say goodbye, but I get a feeling this isn't over."
That's the first thing you've said approaching reality.
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I notice you didn't address my assertion that nobody is going to be swayed by your comment. I'm going to assume that anything you don't address is something you don't have a counterpoint to, because if you did have one, you should have used it. Also, by "useful information for historical purposes" I meant for you to interpret that as "look at the stupid **** these primitives believed" which is (far more inflammatory-sounding than I'd use seriously, but the point you seem to be pushing and still) something that is relevant for art history at a minimum (a lot of religiously inspired art is quite frankly breathtaking, and knowing the whole story behind them is important to historians because that's sort of their job). As for the atheism/antitheism divide, you're right that they're different things, but the kinds of people I'm talking about are both. They believe there is no God or gods (atheism) and that nobody should ever pray to or otherwise acknowledge them (antitheism). This is a pretty clear summary of your displayed position, "doctrine" is not limited to religion, and the people I was talking about don't represent proper atheism any more than ISIS represents proper Islam, for much the same reasons (I'd say "except all the murder" but Stalin's Russia was an example and killed more people than the Holocaust so...) The doctrine I refer to is one I've seen described as "Sciencism" due to being closer to a religion than anything that could actually be called science; slavishly holding to the answers they've heard (some of which have since been scientifically disproven) and ignoring the fact that the nature of science is that we'll never have ALL the answers (a given religion quite often DOES have all the answers, it's just that most of those answers are wrong). Oh, and I almost forgot, but your first statement in that last comment makes basically no sense in this context, because the whole point of the deviation that started this is to inform people that Hell doesn't exist even in the (rather absurd) context that the Bible is literal truth. So saying that believing in Hell causes problems proves my point better than it proves yours. Have you forgotten what we were actually arguing about?
That said, most atheists are normal people who simply don't believe in God, just like most Christians are normal people who happen to go to church on Sunday. For that matter, most of the churchgoers probably don't even really listen to the preacher, but they still consider themselves Christians. I'm not talking about those people, I'm talking about the ones who are all "smite the (non-)believers!" with the parenthetical's presence or absence depending on which side they're on. I'm talking about YOU. (Yes, I know "smite" has religious connotations, but so does "demonizing" and you used that so it's fair game as far as I'm concerned.)
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"I notice you didn't address my assertion that nobody is going to be swayed by your comment."
And?
"I'm going to assume that anything you don't address is something you don't have a counterpoint to, because if you did have one, you should have used it."
Nope.
"They believe there is no God or gods (atheism) and that nobody should ever pray to or otherwise acknowledge them (antitheism)."
Really? You don't see antitheists protesting Pastafarians.
"I'd say "except all the murder" but Stalin's Russia was an example and killed more people than the Holocaust so..."
Yawn. Stalin was an authoritarian who wanted everything to be under his control. Don't act like he was against religion for intellectual reasons. The Nazis were allied with the Catholic and Lutheran Churches and Hitler was just repeating what they'd been saying for centuries.
"The doctrine I refer to is one I've seen described as "Sciencism" due to being closer to a religion than anything that could actually be called science; "
Nope. Claiming something unscientific "because science" is still unscientific. "Sciencism" is a religious buzzword based on the bullshit claim that everyone has faith in something. As for "never have all the answers," you won't get any from religion that you couldn't get from science. And science's answers are actually correct.
Then you accuse me of demonizing...somebody or something, it's unclear. And false. “You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” comes to mind.
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Now, I could address your points, but I don't actually have to, because all of it is attacking my window dressing and leaving my actual point alone. That point is that facts have value only if you can convince people of them, and your facts (which I've already admitted are actually facts) are worded in such a way that nobody who doesn't already agree with them will give you the time of day. Address the point that nothing you're saying matters, or nothing you say matters. (That's practically a tautology.)
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" facts have value only if you can convince people of them"
False. If I say "this gun is loaded" and somebody isn't convinced I can shoot them. Or are you saying reality changes if people don't believe it?
You've descended into insults and empty words.
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Your example disproves it as a general rule, I'll give you that. However, the only way the facts that started this chain can affect the world is if they are sufficient to get someone to re-evaluate their beliefs, and I don't see that happening to anyone who willingly read this deviation in the first place; I can barely see such people giving someone with a username like yours enough credit to justify reading your comment in the first place, and it's mainly the people who were already losing their faith (and didn't have it restored by the deviation itself, which is possible if the supposed existence of Hell is what caused their crisis of faith), and people who already agree with you. (I'm technically in the latter category, by the way; I'm lambasting your confrontational tone, not the facts themselves). The prophetess Cassandra could tell you how far that facts which those in power refuse to believe will get you, and the US government's handling of global warming (or rather lack thereof) would back her up. I'm not saying that belief can change reality (not directly, anyway; people's decisions are based on their beliefs, after all), but I AM saying that your comment could serve no purpose but to spread the very hate that you decry.
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And again somebody doesn't bother looking up what my username's referencing. Dipshit.
Rather than address the person who made this post, you're attacking the person who pointed out why it's wrong. You ignore the problem and blame the person pointing it out for not being nice enough.
Your lack of self-awareness isn't my problem. Accept you're wrong and stop bitching.
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hell is earth its self cause well Christians make it hell for the rest of us who have a different belief
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And the ones who actually try to follow the entire book of Leviticus instead of just quoting 18:22 endlessly make it Hell for themselves (seriously, you should see some of the things it forbids)
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This "plan" is the most convoluted, batshit insane, wiggedy wack, bone-headed, cobbled together plan I have ever seen in my life.
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If you think the hell is an enternal torment then read these
www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesO…
www.wake-up.org/newsletter-arc…
www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/…
And this www.yhvh.name/?w=1240
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Uhm…I’m not sure if these links are for me to see, or just extra info regarding the topic of hell, but I’m going to reply just in case...to avoid confusion.
Hell is NOT a place of eternal torment.
The bible is very clear saying that eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.
So I’m going to copy paste a paragraph of this deviation here:
“The wicked shall perish (Psalm 37:20), will be destroyed (Psalm 145:20), will die (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23, Romans 1:32, Romans 6:21, James 1:15), will be devoured by the fire (Psalm 21:9), shall not be (Psalm 37:10), shall be cut off and rooted out (Proverbs 2:22, Psalm 37:9, Psalm 37:34), shall be ashes (Malachi 4:3), into smoke shall they consume away (Psalm 37:20), as wax melteth before the fire (Psalm 68:2), shall be punished with everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), will be burn up and it shall leave them neither root nor branch (Malachi 4:1, Matthew 13:30)”
God bless
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mostly excellent. it would have been nice to see the definitions of the Greek words that Jesus actually used, Hades and Gehenna, which have been mistranslated in many Bibles as hell, or hellfire. in any case, the only issue i can see is with your statement that the lake of fire is something on earth, or will be. John states succinctly that the lake of fire is, or means the second death. it is a condition of non-existence, oblivion, eternal death, and is therefore symbolic
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I had undergone a huge spiritual change at the start of this year and grew truly depressed in my faith about eternal suffering, since it was something impossible to wrap my mind around...because it spoke of two sides of the Lord; either one of love, or one of absolute hate and wrath that could never be stopped... It all just confused me and I almost wanted to turn away, yet I didn't. So many believe that eternal suffering is true and they accept it so easily... I simply could not fathom that a Lord of Love would consider such an evil upon His own creation... and people seem so happy about it... blindly following that doctrine as if it's completely fine and normal... It's scary how many believe that sort of punishment... No love for others at all, if that's the case....
My faith is very precious to me and I seek to protect it...and try not to be deceived by following Christ's and His Father's word as much as I can... but other than that, religion is such an icky topic for me...
But I came across this and it helped my heart more...because I felt so alone in my belief of eternal Death, not torture...
Praise the Lord
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Yea, that’s the human nature talking and the distorted view of God Satan is trying to introduce. We’re kinda stuck on an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Luckily God is not that way.
He suffers with us right now; He would be suffering for all eternity if He tortured the wicked for all eternity. Not only that, He wants us to obey Him because we love Him, not because we fear Him (that’s why He didn’t kill Satan right away when he rebelled against Him).
You're not alone in this (: God bless 
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By His Grace, no.
I know He does suffer... He talked to me in a way that the Hell doctrine is completely false and it's something He would never think of doing...
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EEE!
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Did you know Ellen White claimed to have had a vision of her deceased husband?
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You overlooked Luke 16, which shows a man in Hell.
Hell is real ETERNAL place of suffering, not a myth of pagans.
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You mean the parable in Luke 16:19-31? The rich man a Lazarus?
“Therefore speak I to them in parables (Παραβολή/parabolē): because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.” ~ Mathew 13:13
What is a parable (Παραβολή/parabolē)? Symbolically fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral).
A parable is not literal history; it is a fictional story conveying a meaning
If this parable is taken literally it presents contradictions with the rest of the Word of God:
---Hades is not hell:
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption." ~Acts 2:31
---Carried by angels? (Luke 16:22) The word of God says we return to the dust.
“All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” ~ Ecclesiastes 3:20
---Abraham’s bosom? Abraham is dead (Gen. 25:8-9, John 8:52), he is not in heaven or paradise.
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” ~John 3:13
---They both died and the bible says there is no wisdom, no knowledge in the grave (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” ~Ecclesiastes 9:5
---They are talking to each other? The bible says death is like a sleep: (John 11: 11-14, Matthew 9:24, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, I Cor. 15:20)
“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;…” ~deuteronomy 31:16
David is asleep with his fathers (2 Samuel 7:12, 1 Kings 2:10)
Solomon is asleep with his fathers (1 Kings 11:43)
---And he cried? (luke 16:24)
“Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.” ~Psalm 31:17
--- “And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed…”~luke 16: 26
Heaven and hell are separated by a great body of water… right
--- “…so that they which would (thelō ethelō) pass from hence to you cannot…” ~luke 16: 26
Those in heaven are ‘thelō ethelō’ incline to, or desire to go to hell? ….ok….
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None of Jesus' parables ever used real people's names. This tale does.
Not everything that Jesus said was parable you know, for example, Matthew 24:37-39
Even if it is a parable, the teaching is plain that there is a conscious afterlife, not the mythical doctrine of the Sadducees that SDA's and JW's believe.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."-Ecc 12:7
Context. Context. Context.
It should be noted that Solomon's writings is to the physical realm, not the spiritual realm.
Note this excerpt taken from chapter 1
VS 9-11
'The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.'
"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Cor 4:18
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." —2nd Corinthians 5:8
Elijah was taken up bodily to heaven, Enoch was taken up bodily to Heaven. Both Moses and Samuel were seen after they died, Samuel to King Saul, and Moses with Elijah on the mountain with Christ.
Hades or Sheol, is the place of temporary suffering, it is not the grave, as is falsely assumed (nobody has ever been buried in a sheol, only a kever).
FYI, the Paradise in this passage is not the same as Heaven...
There are several cases when a person is dying or brought back to life, the Bible says their spirit left or returned to that person respectively.
Sleep, refers to the body, not the soul, can you show me one verse that says the soul 'sleeps'?
Jesus himself said the believers would never see death (John 8:51)
The Book of Revelation has several places of souls(not resurrected) dead saints in Heaven, not sleeping, but petitioning God to avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11; 20:11)!
Jesus promised the thief on the Cross would go to paradise THAT DAY, not after a long sleep in the ground(please do not bring up the mythical comma thing...it only shows up in the JW's Bible because they put it there).
If soul sleep is true, you make Jesus a liar, and God cannot lie so...
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wow...sorry for this long reply 
“None of Jesus' parables ever used real people's names. This tale does.
Not everything that Jesus said was parable you know, for example, Matthew 24:37-39
True, but real names or not, it’s still a parable. As I said if it’s taken as literal history that would mean that the rest of the bible is lying.
“Even if it is a parable, the teaching is plain that there is a conscious afterlife, not the mythical doctrine of the Sadducees that SDA's and JW's believe.
The teaching of that parable wasn’t about the afterlife.
"Context. Context. Context.
It should be noted that Solomon's writings is to the physical realm, not the spiritual realm.”
Not the spiritual realm? Solomon was aware of the “spiritual realm”. Our body returns to the earth, and our spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it. He knew our spirit (the breath of life) returned to God…that is not physical
“Elijah was taken up bodily to heaven,”
True! 2 Kings 2:11
“Enoch was taken up bodily to Heaven.”
True! Hebrews 11:5
“Both Moses and Samuel were seen after they died”
Moses is with the Lord since He disputed about Moses' body with the devil (Jude 1:9)
But Samuel? That was not Samuel (1 Samuel 28)
“Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” ~Leviticus 19:31
Consulting with mediums is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord (Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The dead know nothing (Samuel was dead) (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Satan can deceive us with the so called spirits of the dead; he can fake them, as he can transform himself. He can also do great signs and wonders to deceive us (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). So Saul wasn’t speaking with Samuel, but with a demon.
“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” ~ 2 corinthians 11:14-15
“So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” ~ 1 chronicles 10:13-14
"… and Moses with Elijah on the mountain with Christ."
True! Matthew 17:3.
"Hades or Sheol, is the place of temporary suffering, it is not the grave, as is falsely assumed (nobody has ever been buried in a sheol, only a kever)."
If it's a place of temporary suffering why would Jesus go there?
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption."~Acts 2:31
besides....
“And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (sheol) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. ~Genesis 37:35
“What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave (sheol)? Selah” ~psalms 89:48
"FYI, the Paradise in this passage is not the same as Heaven..."
So now there is a temporary hell and a temporary paradise…that are not backed up by the rest of the scripture or Jesus’ teachings…
"There are several cases when a person is dying or brought back to life, the Bible says their spirit left or returned to that person respectively."
Exactly! When we die our spirit (ruach) leaves to return to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7) because life comes from God. He gave us that breath of life we He created us and we became a living soul.
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”~ Genesis 2:7
"Sleep, refers to the body, not the soul, can you show me one verse that says the soul 'sleeps'?"
We are a soul (nephesh), we don’t have a soul. That’s why the bible says that:
Souls are born (Genesis 46:18), souls eat (Leviticus 7:20) souls sin (Leviticus 5:17, James 4:4). Souls learn (Proverbs 19:2). Souls can get sick (psalm 41:4), Souls can be killed (Numbers 35:11), can be destroyed (Joshua 11:11), can be slain (Deuteronomy 27:25), can bleed (Jeremiah 2:34), they can be touched (John 8:51) and souls can die (Leviticus 21:11, Numbers 19:13, Numbers 6:6), and souls can be buried (psalms 35:7, Jeremiah 18:20).
“And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead (nephesh) , and shall hallow his head that same day.” ~ Numbers 6:11
All those verses have the word “nephesh”
"Jesus himself said the believers would never see death (John 8:51)"
“but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” ~ Genesis 3:3-5
“The soul(nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die" ~Ezekiel 18:4
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” ~Revelations 20:6
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” ~1 Corinthians 15:51-52
"The Book of Revelation has several places of souls(not resurrected) dead saints in Heaven, not sleeping, but petitioning God to avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11; 20:11)!"
The language used in Revelations to explain some things (not everything) is symbolic. The seals are part of this symbolic language. Unless you also want to accept 4 literal horsemen roaming in the world…
---The first seal (revelations 6:1-2) the white horse
---The second seal (revelations 6:3-4) the red horse
---The third seal (revelations 6:5-6) the black horse
---The fourth seal (revelations 6:7-8) the pale horse
---The fifth seal (revelations 6:9-11) An altar with crying souls (martyrs)
---The sixth seal (revelations 6:12-13) The end of time
---The seventh seal (revelations 8) the seven angels with seven trumpets
Now what does these seals and verses mean? That is another long topic…
“Jesus promised the thief on the Cross would go to paradise THAT DAY, not after a long sleep in the ground(please do not bring up the mythical comma thing...it only shows up in the JW's Bible because they put it there).”
What comma thing? The comma doesn’t matter. The bible explains itself if we read carefully.
This is explained in my deviation--> What happens when we die but I’ll give it a copy paste here.
Is the thief on the cross in paradise right now? No. (but he will be)
“Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise (paradeiso).” ~ Luke 23:39-43
The word used in this verse for paradise is: paradeiso. What is paradise?
The word is also used in: “was caught up to paradise ('paradeiso') and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell”~2 Corinthians 12:4
Revelation calls it ‘Paradise of God’ (paradeisou tou theou). Paradise is where God dwells, or the third heaven like 2 Corinthians 12:2 calls it.
How can we know paradise is where God dwells?
The word of God tells us in Revelation 2:7 that the tree of life is in the ‘midst of the Paradise of God’, and Revelation 22:1-2 says:
“And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life’ which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Paradise = Heaven = Third heaven = God’s dwelling place
* * * * * *
Jesus died; He was buried and rose in the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). There was plenty of time for His ‘soul’ to go to heaven/paradise, but when Mary Magdalene saw Him for the first time after His resurrection Jesus told her:
“Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” ~ John 20:17
He didn’t ascend to Paradise /Heaven/ Third heaven/ God’s dwelling place while He was in the tomb. So neither Him, nor the thief on the cross went to Paradise/Heaven that day.
We (including the thief on the cross) will go to paradise/heaven to be with Him when Jesus comes again: (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
“In My Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” ~ John 14:2-3
“If soul sleep is true, you make Jesus a liar, and God cannot lie so...”
Jesus himself said that death is like a sleep. Those are not my words, but His; and as you say He cannot lie.
“These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead” ~ John 11: 11-14
“He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.”~ Matthew 9:24
God bless
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It should be noted the earliest report of a 'Christian' teaching soul sleep was in the 4th Century, by the pantheist Arnobius(he still believed in multiple gods, and didn't know much about scripture). Christian Heaven and Hell after life teachings can be
traced to the 1st Century.
Either way you slice the cake, Solomon refers to life after death at least twice in this book, and only of the bodily condition of the dead not knowing.
One could say that the dead know nothing could refer to the living world, as the dead in Sheol were separate from the living, and could no longer see what the living were doing.
Sheol has never been translated as burying places like Kever has.
The body is never described as going to Sheol in scriptures, nor is Sheol ever used in the plural tense.
How do you know it wasn't Samuel? The Bible doesn't say 'an evil spirit imitating Samuel'(that only occurs in the Ellen White inspired Clear Word Bible), It just says Samuel. The Bible is as clear as glass on that fact.
What's so hard to believe that God raised Samuel's spirit to speak to Saul one last time?
How could Satan know Saul was going to die the next day? Does Satan know the day we'll die?
Also, why did Samuel say that Saul and his sons would be with him the next day? Sheol couldn't be the grave, because well, Saul wasn't buried on the day of his death. Saul was buried at the most three days later.
Another similar passage is when Jacob dies.
Genesis 49:33 -'And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.'
Jacob died, yielded up his spirit, and was gathered unto his people, long before he was buried in Canaan, over 10 weeks later (Genesis 50).
Isaiah 14 has conversation being made by people in Sheol/Hades, and actually shows that someone can be in Sheol, without their body being buried.
Isaiah 14:9-11, 15-20
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee......
......Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
People in Sheol are shown as being conscious, in concordance to Luke 16.
The person in this passage(the King of Babylon) is described as having no burial place. How could he be in Sheol, if he had no Kever?
There are theologians who say that the pre-crucifixion Sheol/Hades was divided into 2 parts: the part where the rich man went, and the part that Lazarus went to. Luke 16 refers to this division in detail, AKA Paradise.
When Jesus went down to Hades, he went to get the righteous souls, to take them to Heaven.
The Biblical terminology of sleep when refering to death, is a figure of speech, similar to how today we say they passed away, or passed on.
Jesus did not contend with the Devil over Moses' body, that was Michael. Michael is a powerful angel, not God Almighty.
The idea of Jesus and Michael being the same person is a lie of Arianism, which viewed Jesus as just a mighty angel, not one part of God.
Ellen White was very much an Arian.
Moses passed through death, but Michael came down and gave him life before his body had seen corruption. Satan tried to hold the body, claiming it as his; but Michael resurrected Moses and took him to heaven. Satan railed bitterly against God...but Christ did not rebuke His adversary... He meekly referred him to His Father, saying, 'The Lord rebuke thee.'" Early Writings, p. 164 (emphasis added).
Once again I repeat, the only Bible that says this, is the Ellen White inspired Clear Word Bible.
If Jesus came down and rebuked Satan, it wouldn't be like this, it would be like he did when Satan tempted him ('thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God').
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I’m not too interested in when supposedly was first reported the concept of soul sleep, nor by whom.
I prefer to believe God's word and if Jesus says the dead are sleeping (John 11: 11-14) I believe Him. Simple as that.
If I understand correctly now, instead of going to heaven or hell, there is the concept of going to sheol. You can either be in the bad part of sheol with the wicked, or in the nice part of Sheol with the righteous. And the righteous want to cross to the bad side, but they can’t because they are separated by water so they just speak to each other. So they are staying there until God comes to resurrect the bodies so He can put the souls that are in Sheol back into the bodies, so He can take them to heaven...
I know it wasn't Samuel because Samuel was dead. (1 Samuel 28:3)
Also how do you know it was Samuel? Saul never saw Samuel it was the medium who supposedly spoke in behalf of the prophet (1 Samuel 28:12-14) Saul just assumed it was him.
How do you know she wasn't being tricked by Satan?
Why would God use a medium that contends with evil spirits to deliver a message? Why would God use an abominable method condemned by Him (Leviticus 19:31, Deuteronomy 18:10-13) to communicate with His people?
Do you think a person like her would've been able to distinguish God's voice from Satan's?
How can you know Satan wasn't planning on killing Saul? It was clear God's protection wouldn't be entirely on Him, since he had strayed from God’s path. God wasn’t even talking to Saul anymore, so whatever talked to Him through that medium wasn’t sent by God.
“And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.” ~1 Samuel 28:15
Why do we underestimate Satan? He's been living in this earth since almost the beginning, he is wise and intelligent, he is a fallen angel after all, and he's the father of lies (John 8:44). He easily and convincingly tricks people.
Also I don't use the clear water bible (I’ve never read it); I use the KJV and Reina Valera with interlinear scripture in Hebrew and Greek. And yes the bible is very clear.
“And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost (gâva), and was gathered unto his people.” ~ Genesis 49:33
‘gava’, meaning to breath out, expire, perish. Of course they yielded their spirit! They died and the spirit returns to God. Soul (nephesh) and spirit (ruach) are not the same thing.
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach) shall return unto God who gave it.” ~ Ecclesiastes 12:7
“Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath (ruach), they die, and return to their dust.” ~ Psalms 104:29
‘Qeber’ is a sepulcher, not necessarily a grave. And a grave (Sheol) isn't necessarily burial place...“it is any place that becomes the receptacle of what is dead, lost, or past”.
We both say the soul goes to Sheol upon death, but you see the soul as an immaterial thing and I see the soul as the person itself, the body. I believe the soul can die and be buried.
“Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul (nephesh). Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.” ~ Jeremiah 18:2
“Whosoever toucheth the dead body (nephesh) of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul (nephesh) shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.” ~ Numbers 19:13
Isaiah 14 doesn’t present conversation in the Sheol, that is figure of speech just like blood crying out also is (Genesis 4:10). And the teachings in the parable of Luke 16 weren’t about the afterlife. As I already told you, if we want to take Luke 16 as literal history we have to throw out the rest of the bible.
“Luke 16 refers to this division in detail, AKA Paradise.”
The bible refers to heaven/God’s dwelling place as paradise (Revelation 2:7). Sheol is not paradise.
Yes, I believe Michael is Jesus, but I'm not gonna go into that topic because that’s not the point of this conversation or this deviation.
Also, I don’t know if we should keep this conversation up. We have different beliefs regarding the soul, and the ‘afterlife’. The same verses you use to disprove me, are the same verses I use to prove my beliefs and vice versa. We are never getting anywhere with this.
At least we believe in the same God that has promised us eternal life (:
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John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
It's only the Old Testament Righteous who were in Sheol, they were taken up to the Third Heaven, when Christ went up to Heaven.
This site can explain it better than I can.
www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testa…
God used the pagan execution of crucifixion for Christ's sacrifice. Moot argument.
God used Balaam to witness for his people, and he was a diviner and a sorceror. Balaam was a polytheistic prophet, a diviner and soothsayer, but God used him to bless Israel in the face of King Balak. Balaam did not fully convert to worship God, as in a later passage, he devised sending Midianite prostitutes to seduce the Israelite men. He was later killed when Israel warred with the Midianites.
Balaam was very much like this woman, but God used him in 3 times to bless Israel.
If God could speak through Balaam, a polytheistic soothsayer, and a donkey, an unclean animal, don't you think he could use a witch?
The Bible says that demons are capable of speaking half-truths. The spirit here does not try to deceive Saul, or speak half truths. He told the truth from the start, and everything he said was true.
If you 'try the spirits' in this passage, it points to Samuel being what the Bible says he is, in plain language.
What is Satan's gain, if this was a demonic deception? Saul was already doomed, for his rebellion and searching for the witch.
There is also no indication the spirit was speaking through the witch, there is only recorded a direct communication between the spirit and Saul.
The witch was clearly afraid by who and what she saw.
show me where the Bible says Samuel spoke through the woman.
If you were a deceiver, practicing theatrics that necromancers and spiritualists were known for(i.e The Mentalist), wouldn't you be frightened if you saw a real spirit appear before your eyes? Or consider this, a person who was only familiar with the dark presence of the demons. A spirit from God would be an alien and unfriendly sight to a servant of Satan.
God had more to benefit in this revelation than Satan did.
One, it reconfirmed God's judgement on Saul, and two, it shows the dangers of trying to dabble in the spiritual realm, as warned by the Law.
Here's a a lengthy multi-part article about the Clear Word Bible, showing how it is corrupted by the teachings of Ellen White.
carm.org/clear-word-bible
Biblically every person is divided into three parts, similar to how God is divided into three part(We're made in God's image, after all)s. Paul describes humans being made up of 'spirit, soul, and body' (1 Thess. 5:23).
An extensive article on the triple nature of human beings.
www.exadventist.com/Home/Dead/…
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God can use many people, it doesn’t matter who they are or what they do. But God always uses the righteous and holy method, He uses His perfect method. How else would He win the heart of those that are in the wrong path? How would He convince a liar to stop lying if He lies? How would He convince a medium to stop dealing with familiar spirits, if He uses familiar spirits to speak to His people?
God always sets an example for us to follow. He says:
“There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.” ~Deuteronomy 18:10-13
How can He tell us to be perfect if He’s not going to be perfect?
I’ll say it again. Saul never saw Samuel and God had departed from him and wasn’t speaking to him anymore (1 Samuel 28:6)
“And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.” ~1 Samuel 28:15
I already explained this in the last comment…
“And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.” ~1 Samuel 28:12-14
He wasn’t seeing Samuel, he had to ask her what she was seeing. Also everything that the spirit told Saul (1 Samuel 28: 16-19) was already known (1 Samuel 15 & 1 Samuel 16). Also the woman wasn’t afraid of the spirit, she was afraid for her life because of this--> 1 Samuel 28:9
But why stop there:
“So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” ~1 chronicles 10:13-14
'And enquired not of the Lord'. The bible is clear with that.
Satan is a great deceiver. Do you think he was telling the truth when he said to Eve that she wasn’t going to die if she ate the fruit (Genesis 3:3-5)?
And again with the clear word bible and Ellen G white… I still don’t understand why you are bringing it up. I don’t use that bible.
As I told you I believe in the soul, body, spirit concept, but I go with the bible in this:
The soul dies: Numbers 35:11, Leviticus 21:11,Job 33:22
The body returns to the dust: Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 3:19-20, Psalms 104:29
The spirit returns to God: Ecclesiastes 12:7, Psalms 104:29
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God can use sinful people, just like he can saved people. God used the Philistines, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, all idolaters, to punish and enslave Israel when she went astray.
Still the biggest fact remains that the prophecy the spirit proclaimed came true, something that was aligned with the real Samuel's record.
Remember God has control of our spirit after death (Ecc 12:7), and he alone has the power to resurrect the dead.
You notice Samuel is angry, and condemns Saul for summoning him.
The fact still remains that the Bible only says it is Samuel, it doesn't imply an impersonation of any kind, be it through a demon, or the woman.
Seeing a real human spirit, she may have thought it was a sting operation when it was revealed to her her visitor was King Saul, believing the one who had appeared was one of Saul's men.
Demons aren't allowed to decree for God.
God's words are truth! The Bible affirms Saul's perception 4 times in this passage.
If God said that that spirit was Samuel, then who are we ignorant mortals to argue with him?
In a Jewish commentary on the passage, it points out that Saul didn't seek God out. He never sought out God, asking for forgiveness, he remained in rebellion. He never inwardly apologized for his actions.
Saul first disobeyed God by making a sacrifice without Samuel being there, then he disobeyed God concerning the Amalekites, after that hunted down David without cause, during which he killed a 19 priests for getting in his way, and finally to top all that off he went to a practitioner of witchcraft.
I'm just trying to point out that, since the beginning, the people of God believed in an afterlife, not soul sleep.
Ellen White came up with her Soul Sleep doctrine to explain the 'investigative judgement'. The JW's use it to prove Jesus was not God.
www.gotquestions.org/soul-slee…
I believe that the souls of the dead go to two places, Sheol/Hades, and the Third Heaven. I believe there are 2 based on the context of Revelation 20, one before the Tribulation for the righteous, and the second after the Millennial reign for the lost (Death and Hell gave up their dead...).
The wicked are then cast into Gehenna or the Everlasting Fire.
Gehenna was originally designed for Satan and his angels, but because of man's rebellion, it became made for mankind too.
Peter spoke of angels already be
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This will be my last reply to you in this deviation, because we are not communicating. Also we will never agree with each other.
“God can use sinful people, just like he can saved people. God used the Philistines, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, all idolaters, to punish and enslave Israel when she went astray.”
Of course God uses sinful people! We are all sinful (Romans 3:23). I never said the contrary. He uses sinful people but He NEVER uses sinful methods (1 Peter 1:16). God cannot sin (Proverbs 6:16-18, James 1:13) for He is holy and in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5) and dealing with familiar spirits is a sinful and evil method (2 Kings 17:17), an unclean method (Leviticus 19:31) an abominable method (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).
“The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” ~Psalm 145:17
Do you really think God would use the sin of consulting with familiar spirits to deliver His (already delivered) holy message?
“Still the biggest fact remains that the prophecy the spirit proclaimed came true, something that was aligned with the real Samuel's record.”
That is not the biggest fact. It’s not a fact.
The spirit didn’t proclaim any prophesy it just repeated what God had already proclaimed through Samuel when he was alive (1 Samuel 15 & 1 Samuel 16). And what happens to someone without God’s protection? That is not hard to guess.
That’s how the devil plays, he uses God’s words, he transforms into an angel of light, a minister of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:14-15), he perform the same ‘miracles’ (Exodus 7:11). That’s how he fooled Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:3).
Just because is the truth doesn’t mean is God talking:
“And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.” ~Acts 16:16
“Remember God has control of our spirit after death (Ecc 12:7), and he alone has the power to resurrect the dead.”
Yes, He has our spirit (ruach) which is just our breath of life (Genesis 7:22). And Yes, He has the power to resurrect the dead. And that wasn’t what happened with the witch of Endor (Isaiah 8:19, Leviticus 19:31).
“You notice Samuel is angry, and condemns Saul for summoning him.”
So what? Satan knows how to put a show. He is a great deceiver (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
“The fact still remains that the Bible only says it is Samuel, it doesn't imply an impersonation of any kind, be it through a demon, or the woman.”
Saul thinks it is Samuel, even though he never sees him. The fact still remains that the bible says the spirit wasn’t from the Lord (1 chronicles 10:13-14).
”Demons aren't allowed to decree for God.”
This demon didn’t decree anything. He just repeated words already spoken by God (1 Samuel 15 & 1 Samuel 16).
“God's words are truth! The Bible affirms Saul's perception 4 times in this passage."
What perception? Saul was looking to the ground! She told him how the familiar spirit looked, and by her description he recognized the familiar spirit as Samuel so he bowed down with his face facing towards the ground:
“And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.” ~ 1 Samuel 28:14
"If God said that that spirit was Samuel, then who are we ignorant mortals to argue with him?”
Exactly! Why argue with God when His word clearly says the spirit Saul talked to wasn’t from Him?
“So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” ~1 chronicles 10:13-14
^ That is the biggest fact.
"I'm just trying to point out that, since the beginning, the people of God believed in an afterlife, not soul sleep."
No they didn’t: Ecclesiastes 9:10, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:4, Acts 7:60
Ellen White came up with her Soul Sleep doctrine to explain the 'investigative judgement'.
It was Jesus that taught us the dead sleep when he said Lazarus was sleeping (John 11: 11-14). It was not the only time he said a dead person was sleeping.
“I believe that the souls of the dead go to two places, Sheol/Hades, and the Third Heaven”
Yes, you already told me what you believe about this, and I already told you what I believe about this.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me. ^^ God bless!
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Since your eager to finish, I'll say this last thing then I'll be done.
To me, the appearance of Samuel's spirit was Saul's handwriting on the wall (Daniel 5).
If one considers how Saul and Samuel first met, it was already in his nature to seek out spiritual guidance from people (1 Samuel 9).
If you read the scripture, Samuel is not just repeating what is said before, you seem to keep overlooking that. He adds the prophecy of Sauls death the next day. Satan could not have known that, nor could the woman.
Nowhere before had Samuel said that Saul would die in battle with the Philistines. The last time he saw Saul in life he told the king God rejected him as king of his people, and had chosen his neighbor, who was better than him. He didn't say who it was going to be (1 Samuel 15:28), until this meeting here.
Demons never reveal accurate prophecy.
In John 11, Jesus does not confirm soul sleep. When he talks with Lazarus' sister(who only believed in the resurrection), he tells her anyone who believes in Him will live on after death. He is the resurrection!
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
No man can take a soul away or snuff out a soul (Matthew 10:28), so a soul is not mortal but immortal. It is formed in the womb before the body is.
Just because a word means something, doesn't mean it means the same thing throughout the whole Bible.
www.christiancourier.com/artic…
If it weren't for Luke 16, I'd believe that only the unrighteous were unconscious after death, but I'm not going to try to twist the scripture to suit my beliefs (something the SDA's, JW's, Catholics, and Mormons are known for).
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Before making any hypothetical conclusions on Hell and Purgatory, I would like you to read this first. There all your queries will be answered.
archive.org/details/purgatory0…
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I'm not making any 'hypothetical conclusion'. To me this is true, a fact; just as hell and purgatory are facts for you.
Thank you for the link, though my queries were already answered by God's word and I can't accept anything that doesn't match with it. But thank you because I always like to understand all points of view.
God bless
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Thanks for your reply. I, too believe in God's word. And I also believe in God's people. The experiences which they have shared are for us. Do you not believe them ? They have lived their lives in conformity with God's will. Do you think that their testimony is false ?
God's word also gives us the instances of hell- Mat 13:42; Mat 24:51 ; Luk 13:28;
God's word is powerful. Only a Man-of-God can wield it worthily. Satan also used the word of God to confuse Lord Jesus.
So take care, how you interpret it. otherwise you'll be misled by wrong belief.
P.S. My intention is to help you . Understand God's word through the Grace of HIS Spirit and the help of HIS people. That's all !
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Yes, I believe in God’s word and I too believe He uses others to teach us. I believe those who share their experiences if what they say does not contradict God’s word.
I do believe the wicked will burn, there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Mat 13:42; Mat 24:51; Luk 13:28). But I don’t believe they will be burning forever because eternal life is only promised for those whose names are found in the book of life, for those who believed in God (Revelation 3:5, John 6:40).
Thank you, I understand your intention and I appreciate it. Because it’s the same intention I have with any non-believer or believer.
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One of the most misunderstood doctrines out there today. Thank you for this.
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