Nilopher In reply to Nintendo-Dreamer [2014-10-06 22:53:31 +0000 UTC]

No.

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)

These annual feast days fell on a different day of the week each year (Leviticus 23:24-27) and they involved sacrifices and offerings, that’s why they were a shadow of things to come:

“These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.” ~ Leviticus 23:37

There were certain prescribed offerings for each of those yearly feast days, and they were shadows pointing to the future sacrifice of Jesus.

(:

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Nintendo-Dreamer In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-07 07:01:38 +0000 UTC]

I agree with the scriptures you quoted me, and everyone explains the annual holy days the same way to me.  I'm still unsure, though.  I don't celebrate the holy days, but I've come across a few scriptures that make me think perhaps I should.

In all honesty, I'm just not sure.  I'm starting to think my salvation depends upon it.  I wrestle with this quite often.  It's a super difficult study!  I hope you don't mind if I share some of my research.

For example, if Paul was preaching against the holy days in Colossians 2, then why did Paul and Luke observe the Days of Unleavened Bread?

"We sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread" (Acts 20:6).

And Philippi was a gentile nation!  Why on earth would Paul and Luke observe a holy day in a gentile nation?  The gentiles never knew anything about the holy days, so was Paul trying to confuse them?  Or was it important to teach the gentiles about the event?


Also, if the holy days are done away, then why will every nation on earth have to observe the Feast of Tabernacles when Christ returns, or else they will be cursed with no rain?

"Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... And the Lord shall be king over all the earth... And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles... And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain... This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." (Zechariah 14)

And this isn't a one time event, either.  Notice how it says the nations have to keep the Feast of Tabernacles "from year to year."  In other words, this event will take place every year!


If the holy days "were" a shadow of things to come, then why did Paul say the holy days "are" a shadow of things to come?  Would this not imply that some of the day's meanings still have not been fulfilled?

Pass Over represents the death of Christ.  I agree.  But what about the other six holy days?  Does the Feast of Trumpets not represent the second coming of Christ?  And what about The Last Great Day?  Obviously, the last day has not come, yet.


And one final note:  I read some of your other writings and I agree with much of what you say.  I also noticed you post links to the Amazing Facts website.  Do the Seventh-Day Adventists not teach that the Mark of the Beast is Sunday-keeping, in place of keeping the Sabbath day?

Do they not use the scriptures that claim keeping the Lord's Law is a "sign upon your hand, and a memorial between your eyes" to prove this teaching?

Then what about this verse:

"Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the Lord.  Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters... And it shall be for a sign upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's Law may be in thy mouth" (Exodus 13:6-9).

See how it says the Days of Unleavened Bread are a part of the sign?  And also notice how it states the Days of Unleavened Bread are a part of the "Lord's Law," and not the law of Moses.

Maybe this explains why Paul and Luke taught the Days of Unleavened to a gentile nation that had never observed it?

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Nilopher In reply to Nintendo-Dreamer [2014-10-08 21:01:18 +0000 UTC]

I love to learn so share with me everything you want

I’ll just begin by saying that nothing we do can earn us salvation, because salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). It doesn’t come from us or from what we do, or don’t do. Salvation comes from God

I read a quote that I would like to share with you: “The fact that the salvation history significance of the biblical festivals continues way beyond the cross does not mean that Christians are bound to observe them. Aside from the fact that we cannot really keep them, all of their symbolic animal sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ’s truly effective once-for-all sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-14) Furthermore, Christ transferred the focus of our worship from earth to heaven when He ascended there to begin His priestly ministry in God’s heavenly temple (Heb. 7-10).” ~ Roy E. Gane

It is also important to note that the changes regarding ‘the feasts of the Lord’ came gradually. Also the apostles never focused their salvation message in the feasts, but in Jesus. So even if they kept some feasts they didn’t do it as a ‘salvation issue’ nor did they taught others to keep them.

The bible verse in Acts 20:6 about the days of unleavened bread doesn’t say if he was keeping it, how he was keeping it, nor that he was teaching the gentiles to keep it. When he did talked to the gentiles about leaven and keeping the feast he didn’t teach them the way God had taught Israel to do. Instead he told them this:

“Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.” ~1 Corinthians 5:6-8

I’ll try to keep this short…

The Passover [Pesach] and Unleavened Bread (Lev. 23:4-8).  
It involved an offering made by fire unto the Lord (Lev 23:8).

“… it is the LORD'S passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.” ~Exodus 11-12

They had to kill the Passover lamb and put its blood in the door posts and lintels of their houses to survive (Exodus 12:13).

This feast was to be a reminder for Israel that God delivered them from slavery, and sin.

Christ as our Passover lamb:
“…For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us” ~1Corinthians 5:7
..."Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" ~John 1:29

The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Lev. 23:4-8)

Sometimes it is referred to as Passover (Luke 22:1,7), other times as a feast that followed Passover (Leviticus 23:4-7). But it was also a reminder of Israel’s redemption (Exodus 12:39, Deuteronomy 16:3). Yeast was forbidden. The males had to appear before the Lord (Deuteronomy 16:16), and it also involved a sin offering (Numbers 28:16-24) for atonement.

Jesus was our sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24). And as I mentioned earlier Jesus is our Passover, and our sins are cleansed by His blood. He is also the bread of life (John 6:51).

Leaven represents sin and we have to keep the feast in a spiritual way by getting rid of the leaven of ‘malice and wickedness’ and having the unleavened bread of ‘sincerity and truth’ (1 Corinthians 5:6-8).

The Feast of Firstfruits [Reishit Katzir] (Lev. 23:9-14)

They had to bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of their harvest unto the priest who would ‘wave the sheaf before the Lord’, to be accepted for them (Lev 23:10-11). It involved a meat offering and a drink offering (Lev 23:13). They had to offer a lamb without blemish (Lev 23:12), for a burnt offering unto the Lord.

Christ as the firstfruit:
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”~1 Corinthians 15:20

The Feast of Weeks [Shavuot][Pentecost] (Lev. 23:15-22).

“freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee” ~ Deuteronomy 16:10

It involved a meat offering, sin offering, and peace offering (Lev 23:16,19). They had to offer lambs, a young bullock, two rams, a goat (Lev 23:18-19), and firstfruits (Lev 23:17). This was the period of harvest of the crops of the field. The males had to appear before the Lord (Deuteronomy 16:16).

Jesus was our sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24), and our peace offering (Ephesians 2:13-14).

Jesus promised His disciples the Holy Spirit:
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”~ Acts 1:8

And the Holy Spirit came in Pentecost
“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”~ Act 2:4

They preached about salvation through Jesus, and there was a great harvesting of souls (Act 2:41). Jesus sowed the seed of the gospel, and then we had the first harvest in the Pentecost. We’ve been reaping souls for the kingdom of God and there will be a final gathering (Matthew 24:31).

The Feast of Trumpets [rosh Hashanah] (Lev. 23:23-25)

It was a day to blow trumpets (Lev 23:24) and it involved offerings made by fire unto the LORD (Lev 23:25).

The trumpets were seen as a warning. It showed the mercy of God because before He brings judgment He sends a warning. It was time of preparation for the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

“Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;” ~ Joel 2:1

We can see that the judgments in Revelations 8-9 are signaled by a trumpet. The blowing of the last trumpet of the feast of trumpets indicated the end of this feast and the beginning of Yom Kippur. Just like the final trumpet in Revelations indicates the beginning of the Day of Judgment (Revelation 11:15-19).

The Day of Atonement [Yom Kippur], (Lev. 23:26-32).

They also made offerings made by fire unto the Lord (Lev 23:27). Sin offerings for atonement (Leviticus 16:1-34) that involved the blood of animals. The high priest ministered in the most holy place, while Israel would be praying that God would accept their offering of repentance. Those who didn’t confessed their sins would be cut off. That day God came to the most holy place of the sanctuary to make final atonement for the sins Israel.

The seventh trumpet of Revelations introduces the final Judgment (Revelation 11: 15-19; 14:7; Daniel 7:9-14; 8:14). (We Adventists believe this judgment is in progress).

Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-16), and He shed His blood in the cross for us, for atonement (hilasmos). As our sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24).

“And he is the propitiation (hilasmos) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” ~1 John 2:2

The Feast of Tabernacles/ Feast of Ingathering. [Sukkot] (Lev. 23:33-44; Exodus23:16; 34:22)

It included an offering made by fire unto the LORD (Lev 23:36), a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings (Lev 23:37). The males had to appear before the Lord (Deuteronomy 16:16). The feast started: ‘When ye have gathered in the fruit of the land’ (Lev 23:39). They dwelled in booths seven days (Lev 23:42) because God made them dwell in booths when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.

This feast commemorated their journey though the wilderness, it was to be celebrated when they entered the Promised Land (something they missed out because of their lack of faith). While they were in the dessert God was with them and protected them. They would be able to build their permanent houses upon entering the Promised Land.

Now we are passing through a wilderness. We are dwelling in temporary booths/tabernacles.

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.”~2 Corinthians 5:1-4.

When God comes we will come out of this wilderness. We will have our permanent tabernacle, and God will be with us.

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” ~ Revelation 21:3

Just like this feast was celebrated after they gathered the fruit of the land (Lev 23:39), something similar (Rev 7:9) will be celebrated when we are gathered into the kingdom of God. We (as the fruit of the land) hadn’t been gathered yet, therefore there is no feast until that happens.

In conclusion

The ‘salvation history significance’ of these festivals continues, but it is impossible to keep them as God once instructed Israel to keep them. Why?

---Because the literal and ceremonial offerings have no value anymore, and are not needed.

Jesus was our sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21), He was our trespass offering/guilt offering (2 Corinthians 5), He was our burnt offering (Ephesians 5:2), He was our peace offering (Ephesians 2:13-14), and He was our meat/grain offering (Corinthians 15:20).

---Because we don’t have an earthly high priest to offer these offering in our behalf as Israel had. An earthly high priest would have no value.

Jesus is our high priest (Hebrews 4:14-16).

~“Do the Seventh-Day Adventists not teach that the Mark of the Beast is Sunday-keeping, in place of keeping the Sabbath day?”~

Yes.

~“Do they not use the scriptures that claim keeping the Lord's Law is a "sign upon your hand, and a memorial between your eyes" to prove this teaching?”~

Yes, this is part of the explanation we use.
But there is a difference. The Sabbath is not ceremonial, it didn’t and doesn’t involve offerings, and it existed before sin. Whereas the feast of unleavened bread (Exodus 13:6-9) was ceremonial, it involved offerings and was created after sin. It was to be a sign upon their hands and a memorial between their eyes until Jesus death.

~“See how it says the Days of Unleavened Bread are a part of the sign?  And also notice how it states the Days of Unleavened Bread are a part of the "Lord's Law," and not the law of Moses.”~

The verse says that it was a “memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth”. It doesn’t say that this feast was part of God’s Law, it says this feast is a time to remember and proclaim God’s Law. It was a day to remember what God had done for them, delivering them out of Egypt, and it was a day to teach their children about that (Exodus 13:8).

God bless

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Nintendo-Dreamer In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-10 19:17:20 +0000 UTC]

Hi!  

You have indeed given me the best answers and counter-points to my questions regarding Holy Days than anyone else I have previously asked.  (This includes a couple pastors and self-proclaimed experts I met online.)  You are well-studied—a true student of the Bible, and it shows!  I appreciate a good study with anyone who is as sincere as you.  So thank you!

I have thought over what you told me, and re-studied many of the scriptures I previously cited regarding the Holy Days.  To be honest, I'm still not %100 sure either way.  It was only about 3-4 years ago that I first learned the truth about the existence of God, His Sabbath, His diet laws, and the truth about heaven and hell.  So many things are still new to me, and require a lot of studying on my part to understand.  Holy Days happen to be the study I am finding the most difficult.


(1.) To say that Paul and Luke didn't literally observe the Days of Unleavened Bread in Philippi... well, obviously they did observe it in some way or another.  Because why did they wait until the days were over before leaving?  If Paul and Luke were 'spiritually' observing the Days of Unleavened Bread, instead of 'literally,' couldn't they have left Philippi anytime they wanted?

To observe the Days of Unleavened Bread spiritually would be an everyday event, because we should always strive to put out yeast—sin—from our lives.  Therefore, keeping these days spiritually would have no designated time frame.  But the Days of Unleavened Bread observed by Paul and Luke did have a specific time frame and schedule, because they did not leave Philippi until the set days and schedule had ended.


(2.) That's a good point about sacrifices being made on the annual Holy Days.  However, daily sacrifices were actually to be offered every day of the year (Number 28:3-4).  God's people were also commanded to offer sacrifices on the weekly Sabbath, as well. (Numbers 28:9-10).

Just because we no longer offer sacrifices on the weekly Sabbath day, does this mean the Sabbath day is done away?  In the same sense, just because we no longer offer sacrifices on the Holy Days, does this mean the Holy Days are also done away?  Or should we still observe the Holy Days as memorials without sacrifices, just as we now observe the weekly Sabbath without sacrifices?


(3.) So what you are saying is: it's not so much the literal observance of the Days of Unleavened Bread that is a sign between God and His people, but rather it's the repentance of sin—putting out the yeast—that is.  That makes sense!  I admit that's a very good counter-point.

My only problem is this: if the sign between God and His people is when we keep His Law—the Ten Commandments—where does that leave the rest of the commandments in the Old Testament?  In other words, how do we know which of the commandments in the books of Moses we should still keep?

God's diet laws are not in the Ten Commandments.  But obviously, we should not poison our bodies by eating pork.  God's law against marking our bodies with tattoos is not in the Ten Commandments, and is also not found in the New Testament.  Does this mean I can get tattooed from head to toe?  What about God's law against having relationships with animals?  That's not one of the Ten Commandments, and it is also not found in the New Testament.

Some of these commandments in the books of Moses may seem like common knowledge to keep, such as not marking one's body.  But other commandments are not common knowledge.  For example, Leviticus, chapter 25 says: "For six years you may plant your fields and prune your vineyards and harvest your crops, but during the seventh year, the land must have a Sabbath year of complete rest.  It is the Lord’s Sabbath.  Do not plant your fields or prune your vineyards during that year."

Sadly, farmers and crop growers constantly plow fields and never allow the soil to rest.  And mankind has suffered with crop-growing issues as a result.  Obviously, this is a good commandment to keep.  But it's not one of the Ten Commandments.

So how do we know which commandments, outside of the main 10, still stand?  And which are done away?  If we only lived our lives by the Ten Commandments, the diet laws, and the commandments in the New Testament, this means we can get tattoos, have relations with animals, and harm the earth's soil?


(4.)  And finally, what if everyone observed the Holy Days as memorials without sacrifice, just as we now observe the weekly Sabbath?  Could any harm be done?  Pass Over being observed every year would remind all nations of Christ's sacrifice.  The blowing of trumpets on the Feast of Trumpets would be a strong reminder of coming events and troubles.

Feast of Tabernacles may benefit us the most!  Every year, people would leave their homes to live outside together in tents and booths for a whole week.  Can you imagine how close mankind would become?  Today, most everyone lives apart in their own separate homes.  And because everyone is separated, competing with each other, and striving to only take care of themselves, the love for our neighbors is growing cold.  But if everyone lived together outside for a week, and had to rely on taking care of each other, would mankind not unite as one?  Becoming more like a family?

These Holy Days seem pretty awesome to me, because of the events they represent and how they would remind everyone of God's loving ways.  All nations on earth coming together as one to honor days that remind them of Christ?  I see no harm, and only good.


I appreciate you willing to study these things over with me.  If you can counter-point anything I've cited, please do!  I've been searching for the truth, and it's not an easy thing to find.

Surely, if one kept the Holy Days out of respect for God, there is no harm.  But are the Holy Days required for salvation?  I'm sure you are familiar with the verse, "sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)  Is that just the Ten Commandment Law?  Or does that include other laws written in the books of Moses, too?  And do the Holy Days stand or fall together with those laws?

I've lived many years on this earth without knowing the full truth.  I'm starting to take the right steps to become a Christian, and I desire to become a Christian, but I'm unsure how.

How long have you been a Christian?

Thanks for your time!  

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Nilopher In reply to Nintendo-Dreamer [2014-10-12 05:35:10 +0000 UTC]

Hello

I’m still learning and thank you! I love to exchange beliefs and study the bible with others even if we don’t agree in everything, but normally people just want to argue over who is right or wrong :/ they don’t want to understand, they just want to take their point across. So thank you so much for sharing everything that you’ve studied about this topic with me

It’s ok to not be 100% sure, because that means you’ll keep studying. And God tells us to examine (dokimazo) everything:

“Prove(dokimazo) all things; hold fast that which is good.”~ 1 Thessalonians 5:21

And by doing that you will be prepared to defend your faith and share it with others.

“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:” ~1 Peter 3:15

Because: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Timothy 3:16)

So keep it up!

(1.)Those are really good points, but I’m my opinion I don’t think they were observing it, I just think the phrase was used to indicate time. But as I said that’s only my opinion.

I can’t tell you they literally were observing it, nor that they weren’t, because that text (Acts 20:6) doesn’t have any conclusive evidence for either case. So everything we say about that text is an assumption.

Think about this:

---They could have observed the feast of unleavened bread in Troas too. Did they stay in Philippi because they were going to observe the feast or there was another reason?

---If he wanted to observe the feast why didn’t the others stay to observe it with Him? Aristarchus was a former Jew (Colossians 4:10-11), yet he didn’t stay and didn’t observe the feast.
If the feast was to be kept, why didn’t Sopater, Aristarchus, Secundus, Gaius, Timotheus, Tychicus, and Trophimus (Acts 20:4) stay with them to keep it?

---Bible critics say that what they were observing was the Passover feast (Passover is also called feast of unleavened bread, but there was an actual feast with that name that came after Passover). If they were indeed observing the Passover wasn’t the Passover kept only at Jerusalem.
And if they were still keeping God’s holy days after Jesus' death why they didn’t stayed in Philippi other seven days to observe the feast that came after Passover?

---Acts was approximately written between 61-64 A.D, while 1 Corinthians was written in approximately 55 A. D. So before his stay in Phillipi Paul had taught the church at Corinth that Christ is our Passover, and that we should keep the feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Why would he keep the feast with the old leaven instead of keeping it as he taught at Corinth? Was he not living and believing what he was teaching about Christ?

(2.) Yes, there were sacrifices every day. (Exodus 29:38-42, Number 28).

Here are important characteristics of these sacrifices:
---‘Two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering’. (numbers 28:3)
--- ‘And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil’.(Numbers 28:5) (This is what some call a bread offering, it is a Minchach/meat offering/bloodless sacrifice)
---‘It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet smell, a sacrifice made by fire to the LORD’.

Christ as our ‘daily’ offering:
---Jesus ‘offered himself without spot to God’(Hebrews 9:14)
---Jesus is our bread of life (John 6:48)
---Jesus was our sacrifice to God ‘for a sweetsmelling savour’ (Ephesians 5:2)

This is an interesting quote regarding this topic: This was done “partly in expiation of the daily sins of the nation, but mainly as a sign that the nation daily renewed its self-dedication to Jehovah, and offered itself afresh to be ‘a reasonable, holy, and lively sacrifice’ to Him”~ Ellicott's Commentary

As you say none of these week days are ‘done away’ because we don’t need to offer daily sacrifices anymore.
The difference they have with the Holy days is that these holy days were created whereas the days of the week were already there (the Lord just incorporated the daily sacrifices).
And these feasts were created to point to something (Jesus) and to make them remember something (deliverance out of Egypt, the mercy of God etc). It’s all part of a combo, the date + the sacrifices. These feasts are done away now; therefore there is no importance in the dates, the number of days they were kept, and the offerings.

The feasts (holy days) consists in the dates AND the offerings, NOT in the dates OR the offerings.

Therefore:
---The offerings without the dates = Not a feast
---The dates without the offerings = Not a feast
---The dates + the offerings = A feast

The feasts (dates + offerings) were ‘done away’, but there will always be importance in the meaning behind these feasts.

We should always remember: how God delivered Israel out of Egypt, that Christ is our Passover, that sins are cleansed with blood, that we have to put God first and give Him our best, that our mission is to gather souls for the kingdom of God, that God warns us before bringing Judgement, that Christ atoned for our sins, and that we are dwelling in temporary booths.

We should remember always and not in a specific date, we should celebrate this everyday instead of just in holydays.

To them these dates were important because they were going to help Israel identify the Messiah (something they failed to do). But these feasts were lacking. Christ was our perfect sacrifice and fulfilled and carried perfectly the function that the animal sacrifices failed to do.

I see it like… I have an important meeting in Thursday, and because of that I set reminders in my cell-phone calendar so I don’t forget.  Once I have the meeting I don’t need the calendar reminder anymore, but I will never forget the meeting.

(3.) Yup, that’s what I’m saying about the days of unleavened bread. (:

Not only the Ten Commandments, but His words (logos)…that includes more than the Ten Commandments. It is a sign of obedience, a sign of putting Him above everything else in this world. And the only reason we do this is because we love Him (John 14:15).

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words (logos): and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” ~ John 14:23

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word (logos), in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.”~1 John 2:3-5

“Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” ~ John 15:14

By doing what He commands we will keep the dietary laws and other things because He tells us that our body is “the temple of the Holy Ghost” and we have to ‘glorify God in our body’(1 Corinthians 6:19-20). And we have to present our bodies as a ‘living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God’(Romans 12:1).

“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” ~1 Corinthians 3:17

Eating unhealthy foods, tattooing our bodies, having relationship with animals etc is a way to defile our bodies (temple of God). If we physically defile our bodies and we damage our health, this can also damage our ‘spiritual health’.

Just because is not directly found in the New Testament doesn’t mean we don’t have to follow it.

There are laws and statues in the Old Testament that indirectly fall under the Ten Commandments, there are others that are mentioned or implied in the New Testament, there are others that are moral and ethic. Normally they are very detailed to fit the time and culture of Israel.

For example:
--Exodus 21:33-36 & Exodus 22:1-17 warn us about fraud, theft, negligence, and trespassing into other’s property. If we love our neighbor (Mark 12:31) those are things we won’t do. 
--Exodus 23:1-9 talks about: Lying, bearing false witness, stealing, killing, bribery.

For Adventists it is a bit easier to distinguish this, because we separate the law in topics like this:  Ceremonial law, Civil law, Health laws, & Ten Commandments.

--The ceremonial law was nailed at the cross. (Colossians 2:14)
--The civil law was for Israel, specifically written for their time and culture, but there are good, moral, and ethic things we can use in our time, that even indirectly fall under the Ten Commandments.
--The Health Laws are essential for a healthy life in a physical and spiritual sense.
--Ten Commandments are God’s unchanging Law. They are found in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

And yes it is sad what happens to the soil :/ there are really good advices in the bible but people prefer to ignore them.

(4)That’s very true. The holy days are really awesome and it would be great to be united by celebrating them. As long as we don’t forget the significance of the feast and everything that means and entails the sacrifice Jesus made for us, there is nothing wrong in observing the feast (the parts we can observe, since we don’t need to make sacrifices, and there is no temple and earthly high-priest). As long as we know it is not required it is not wrong to observe them.

The only problem I could think of is what if we become a stumbling stone (1 Peter 2:8) to others by doing that? What if we confuse non-believers and people that are new the faith and they start thinking that they need this for their salvation, forgetting what Christ did for us in the cross?

“But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.” ~1 Corinthians 8:9

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a milestone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea”~Mark 9:42

The feasts (holy days) are no longer commandments, and are not required for salvation.

We don’t get saved by keeping the law. It is true that "sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4), but that sin can’t be washed away or forgiven by ‘the observance of the law’, it can only be forgiven and washed away by Christ (Psalm 51:2, John 1:29, 1 John 1:9).

If we keep the law to be saved we are keeping the law in vain, because our works (eg. the observance of the law) can’t bring us salvation. “…for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21).

Our faith brings out works (James 2:17), not the other way around.

For example is kinda like saying: I keep the law (works), because I’m saved (faith), instead of saying: I’m saved because I keep the law.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”~ Romans 4:5

“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” ~ Act 13:38 -39 

The law only shows us our need for Christ.

I found two quotes that can help me to explain this better:

--“Salvation is not something we do to get; it's something that we receive to have”

--In a real sense the law was given to be broken. This does not mean that God delights when we break the law, nor does it mean that we should attempt to break the law or not attempt to keep it.  It simply means that we are unable to keep the law to perfection.  It was given to make us aware of sin.  The law is perfection to place beside our imperfection that we may realize our imperfection in order that we may realize that we cannot save ourselves. In order to realize that we need God.

You become a Christian the moment you accept Christ as your savior and decide to follow Him. It seems to me that you already did that. God does the rest, He is the one that will shape our character, and help us change to become better persons. This is an ‘everyday-learning experience’. As Christians we are constantly learning, and constantly growing.

Is like a song I like that says: “There's no such thing as perfect people, There's no such thing as a perfect life, So come as you are, broken and scarred, Lift up your heart and be amazed, And be changed by a perfect God”

I’ve been a Christian all my life, since I was born into a Christian family. ^^ but as I said I’m learning every day.

ps. Do you remember the text of Zechariah 14 you shared with me, and linked it with Christ’s return? My dad explained to me that Israel was captive in Babylon and Zachariah wrote the text because of that, and he was literally saying that they would do their feast of tabernacles when they returned to Jerusalem. But I’m gonna make him explain this to me in more detail, read a bit more, so then I can share it with you, to see what we can conclude about it (:

God bless!

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Nintendo-Dreamer In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-16 10:46:11 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much!  Yes, I am sincere in my studies.  I really do want to please and honor God.  But sometimes knowing the truth is harder than obeying the truth!  



(1.)  If he wanted to observe the feast, why didn’t the others—Sopater, Aristarchus, Secundus, Gaius, Timotheus, Tychicus, and Trophimus— stay to observe the feast with Him?

It's possible they traveled to some other gentile nation to teach?  That's a good question.

Bible critics say that what they were observing was the Passover feast (Passover is also called feast of unleavened bread, but there was an actual feast with that name that came after Passover). If they were indeed observing the Passover, wasn’t the Passover kept only at Jerusalem?

Yes.  The Passover is a one-day event, and the Days of Unleavened Bread is a seven-day event/feast.  Together, the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread equal 8 days.  So Bible critics would be correct to associate the Days/Feast of Unleavened Bread with Passover.

And yes, if they were observing Passover/Days of Unleavened Bread in a gentile nation, this would prove we no longer have to travel to Jerusalem to keep the Passover.  After all, the temple in Jerusalem is no longer there!  How can I travel to the temple in Jerusalem to keep Passover, if the temple is no longer there?

Consider this: the first Passover/Days of Unleavened Bread did not take place in Jerusalem.  The first Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread took place in Egypt. (Exodus 12:1-27)

So to say that Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread can only be observed at Jerusalem... are you sure?  And can you show me with scripture?

Acts was approximately written between 61-64 A.D, while 1 Corinthians was written in approximately 55 A. D. So before his stay in Phillipi Paul had taught the church at Corinth that Christ is our Passover, and that we should keep the feast with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Why would he keep the feast with the old leaven instead of keeping it as he taught at Corinth?

Because keeping the Days of Unleavened Bread with sincerity and truth does not do away with observing it?  Paul did say "let us keep the feast."  Regardless of how the Christian era was supposed to observe the feast, wouldn't it seem by Paul saying "let us keep the feast" implies we should still keep the feast in some way or another?



(2.)  The feasts (holy days) consists in the dates AND the offerings, NOT in the dates OR the offerings.

Jeremiah 7:22 says: "When I led your ancestors out of Egypt, it was not burnt offerings and sacrifices I wanted from them."

That's a tough study for me, because it seems God is saying the commandments He gave His people while they were leaving Egypt had more to do with obeying Him, rather than being focused on offerings and sacrifices.  Again, I'm not saying you are wrong.  I'm just saying I'm unsure.

I see it like… I have an important meeting in Thursday, and because of that I set reminders in my cell-phone calendar so I don’t forget.  Once I have the meeting I don’t need the calendar reminder anymore, but I will never forget the meeting.

That's a very good point!  But many of these 'meetings' have not taken place, yet.

- Passover is about applying the blood of the Lamb over your door to protect you.  We as as Christians must still apply the blood of the Lamb.

- Days of Unleavened Bread is about putting sin out of our lives after applying the blood.

- Day of Pentecost is about accepting God's Holy Spirit.

These days are completed/still being completed.  I agree.  But what about the rest of the Holy Days?

- Feast of Trumpets.  The last trumpet sounds and Christ returns to earth.  This has not happened, yet.

- Day of at-one-ment.  The whole world becomes 'at one' with God, because Satan is bound.  This has not happened, yet.

- Feast of Tabernacles.  We enter the promised land, as the 1,000 year reign with Christ begins.  This has not happened, yet.

So how can we say we no longer keep the Holy Days because their meanings have been completed, when actually, some of their meanings have not been completed, yet?



(3.)  I agree with all the points you made here.  Indeed, keeping God's Ten Commandment Law is important, but it's also important to keep His health laws, as well as any other law we can benefit from.

You said: Exodus 21:33-36 & Exodus 22:1-17 warn us about fraud, theft, negligence, and trespassing into other’s property. If we love our neighbor (Mark 12:31) those are things we won’t do.

Very true!  The way I see Holy Days is: if we love God, why not keep and celebrate days that honor Him?  Christmas and Easter are pagan in origin, so I cannot keep them.  The only days of the year that are not pagan are Thanksgiving, and maybe Mother and Father's day?  Would it not be boring for me as a Christian to never have any days to celebrate for God?  

The wicked world keeps Sunday.  Christians keep the Sabbath.  The wicked world celebrates pagan festivals created by Rome.  Which festivals can I celebrate?



(4.)  Again, I agree with what you say here, too.  Gosh.  This has been a learning experience for me, too!  Every day I feel I learn more and more.  But it's hard, you know?

For example, what you said about casting stumbling blocks.  That's so true!  If the Holy Days are no longer needed for salvation, and I observe them, I could cause new Christians to stumble!  So why would the Holy Spirit cause the New Testament writers to record the Holy Days in the New Testament?  Surely, Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread and Feast of Tabernacles being recorded after the resurrection of Christ was not to cause me to stumble.  Surely, the Holy Spirit did not inspire these men to write about Holy Days in the New Testament to confuse me.

And yes, I remember the text in Zachariah.  But I'm sure it is about the return of Christ, because the chapter explains that Christ has returned and is now ruling over the earth, etc.



Thanks again for your time!  I'm enjoying our discussion over this issue.  Many sources say to keep the Holy Days, and many sources say not to keep the Holy Days.  It's been a tough and challenging study.  I hope I can get this resolved, because either way, I don't want to disobey God.

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Nilopher In reply to Nintendo-Dreamer [2014-10-18 04:53:40 +0000 UTC]

True, knowing the truth is a bit hard, but with Christ everything is possible

(1) ~“It's possible they traveled to some other gentile nation to teach?  That's a good question.”~

Yes, because they weren’t observing the feast. They traveled to Troas.

~And yes, if they were observing Passover/Days of Unleavened Bread in a gentile nation, this would prove we no longer have to travel to Jerusalem to keep the Passover.  After all, the temple in Jerusalem is no longer there!  How can I travel to the temple in Jerusalem to keep Passover, if the temple is no longer there?~

I do not believe the Passover was only kept at Jerusalem. I forgot to clarify that it was something the critics said in the bible commentary . They are just basing that on assumption because of other bible texts (something about the name of Jesus, the ‘place He chooses’ and that place being the Temple). It was just a way to show you that we can take more out of a text than there is just by basing ourselves in assumptions.

~Because keeping the Days of Unleavened Bread with sincerity and truth does not do away with observing it?  Paul did say "let us keep the feast."  Regardless of how the Christian era was supposed to observe the feast, wouldn't it seem by Paul saying "let us keep the feast" implies we should still keep the feast in some way or another?~

He didn’t tell them to made unleavened bread on the 15th day of the 1st month (Abib/Nisan) and eat that for seven days, he didn’t tell them to take leaven out of their homes, and that anyone that didn’t do so would be ‘cut off’.

Those rituals were imperfect. It is time to focus on He that is perfect, therefore he tells them to keep the feast by getting rid of malice and wickedness. By doing that we are –in a way—keeping the feast the right and perfect way.

Getting rid of leaven in bread means nothing. We are not to work on bread, but in ourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:7). And this work is to be done every single day of our lives.

(2.) ~Jeremiah 7:22 says: "When I led your ancestors out of Egypt, it was not burnt offerings and sacrifices I wanted from them."
That's a tough study for me, because it seems God is saying the commandments He gave His people while they were leaving Egypt had more to do with obeying Him, rather than being focused on offerings and sacrifices.  Again, I'm not saying you are wrong.  I'm just saying I'm unsure.~

Yes, you’re right! Everything was and is about obedience (obedience born out of love). Since the beginning when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, it was about obedience not about some magical properties of the fruit. Of course God is not interested in burnt offerings and sacrifices. Not only are they imperfect, but what meaning do they have if we do not obey God and have faith in Him?

The holy days God gave to Israel consisted in specific dates AND specific offerings. If they obeyed the date but not the offering the offering wasn’t going to be accepted. If they obeyed the offering but not the date the offering wasn’t going to be accepted. In both cases they would have been disobeying God.

Because of that the feasts consist of the dates + the offerings. If you observe the day and some elements you are not exactly keeping the feast.

Is like…I want to make lemon juice so I take some water, some sugar, but decide not to use lemons. The final result won’t be lemon juice.

~That's a very good point!  But many of these 'meetings' have not taken place, yet.
- Passover is about applying the blood of the Lamb over your door to protect you.  We as Christians must still apply the blood of the Lamb.~

The blood of the Lamb was already applied. That’s what paid our debt. Is our decision if we want to accept that sacrifice or not.

His blood was applied only once. Why? Because He is the perfect sacrifice, His blood is perfect. Whereas the old sacrifices had to be done over and over again, because “it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.” (Hebrews 10:4)

“….For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:” ~1 Corinthians 5:7

“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” ~1 Peter 1:18-19

We as Christians don’t have to still apply the blood of Christ, because His perfect blood is only applied once, and that is enough. What we must do now is accept the sacrifice He made.

~- Days of Unleavened Bread is about putting sin out of our lives after applying the blood.~

Here’s a quote: “The sinless nature of Jesus releasing us from the bondage of sin (if we have faith in His atoning death). Jesus is the sinless bread of life (John 6:32, 48-51) and leavened bread represented the corruption of sin in your life, that Jesus overcomes - (1 Cor 5:8). Putting away the sin in your life (leavened bread), and replacing it by accepting sinless Jesus Christ (unleaven bread).”

We no longer literally keep the feast by baking and eating unleavened bread. Christ fulfilled that already (John 6:51).

We—in a way—keep it now with “the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”.

~- Day of Pentecost is about accepting God's Holy Spirit.~

Pentecost/ The Feast of Weeks [Shavuot]/ Feast of Harvest or firstfruits.

It was also known as the Feast of Harvest, because the first fruit was gathered (Exodus 34:22).

“Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.” ~ Lev 23:17 

As I told you, that Pentecost day when they received the Holy Spirit there was a great harvesting of souls (Act 2:41). Jesus sowed the seed of the gospel, and then we had the first harvest in the Pentecost. Those were ‘the firstfruits unto the Lord’. That already happened.

~- Feast of Trumpets.  The last trumpet sounds and Christ returns to earth.  This has not happened, yet.~

The blowing of the last trumpet of the feast of trumpets (rosh Hashanah) indicated the beginning of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. Christ already atoned for our sins, His sacrifice was sufficient. That already happened.

The trumpets of the feast of trumpets have nothing to do with the trumpets of Christ’s return. Remember that the trumpets of that feast indicated that the Day of Atonement was coming. (The Day of Atonement came when Jesus died at the cross, because His blood atoned for our sins, something that the blood of the animals failed to do). In Christ second coming, there is no more atonement, everyone has already been judged.

~- Day of at-one-ment.  The whole world becomes 'at one' with God, because Satan is bound.  This has not happened, yet.~

The Day of Atonement was the day the high priest presented the offering of atonement. Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-16) and He presented himself as the offering of atonement, our atonement. He shed His blood in the cross for us, for atonement (hilasmos). As our sin offering (2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24).

“And he is the propitiation (hilasmos) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” ~1 John 2:2

That already happened.

~- Feast of Tabernacles.  We enter the promised land, as the 1,000 year reign with Christ begins.  This has not happened, yet.~

The Feast of Tabernacles/ Feast of Ingathering. [Sukkot] (Lev. 23:33-44; Exodus23:16; 34:22)

“That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”~ Leviticus 23:43

This feast symbolizes their exodus from sin and commemorated their journey though the wilderness.
--We accept Jesus and his redemption from sin (redemption made at the cross) and we go through the wilderness, in our bodily tents.

During their time in the wilderness, they were not alone, God was with them. They beheld His glory, a column of fire by nigh and a cloud by day (Exodus 13:22), they received bread (mana) from heaven (Exodus16), and water from a rock (Numbers 20:11).
--“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”~1 Corinthians 10:4

--“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”~ John 4:14

--“ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.” ~ John 6:47-50

--“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”~ John 8:12

We accept Jesus for the redemption of sins, and are now walking with Him, our real pillar of light, who gives us real living water that will not cause us to thirst on our way to the Promised Land. He will make His abode with us if we keep His words (2 Corinthians 6:16).

“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”~2 Corinthians 6:16

The end of this feast is in Christ. Everything already happened, but the symbolism (not the feast) lives and can be used:

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” ~ Revelation 21:3

(3.)  ~The way I see Holy Days is: if we love God, why not keep and celebrate days that honor Him? Christmas and Easter are pagan in origin, so I cannot keep them.  The only days of the year that are not pagan are Thanksgiving, and maybe Mother and Father's day? 
Would it not be boring for me as a Christian to never have any days to celebrate for God? The wicked world keeps Sunday.  Christians keep the Sabbath.~

Remember, everything the bible tells us, and everything I’ve repeated here is not against the observance of these feasts (unless you lose the focus in Jesus). The feasts were shadows of something greater: Christ. Thus we no longer need to literally keep them as Israel did. It is not required to keep them, but it is not forbidden to keep them either (unless you keep them thinking they are going to bring you salvation).

If you want to keep them, keep them and: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday…”(Colossians 2:16).

But what you will be keeping won’t exactly be the feast, but something similar to the feast.

~The wicked world celebrates pagan festivals created by Rome.  Which festivals can I celebrate?~

There is the Lord’s supper (Luke 22:19).
Why do we must imitate everything that the pagan world does? They have lots of pagan festivals… so what? Do we also need lots of festivals like them? We are not of this world (John 17:16), we shouldn’t imitate it.

(4.) ~For example, what you said about casting stumbling blocks.  That's so true!  If the Holy Days are no longer needed for salvation, and I observe them, I could cause new Christians to stumble!  So why would the Holy Spirit cause the New Testament writers to record the Holy Days in the New Testament?  Surely, Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread and Feast of Tabernacles being recorded after the resurrection of Christ was not to cause me to stumble.  Surely, the Holy Spirit did not inspire these men to write about Holy Days in the New Testament to confuse me.~

Remember keeping the feasts, or the Ten Commandments etc. won’t save you, they were never required for salvation.

And no, they in no way confuse us.
Because they are clear on what happened to the observances of the feasts. They in no way teach others to observe the feasts, in fact they are accused of doing the opposite:

--And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.” ~ Acts 21:21

--“Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.” ~ Acts 21:28

--Here Paul compares observing days, months, times, and years to the slavery of idolatry:
"But now, after that you have known Elohim, or rather are known of Elohim, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain." ~ Galatians 4:9-11

In Galantians 3 he presents us with clear verses:
--“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Gal 3:3)
--“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (Gal 3:10)
--“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.” (Gal 3:19)
--“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ….
...Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” ~ Colossians 2:8, 14

What ordinances were against us? The Law of Moses that contained the ceremonial laws:
“Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee~Deuteronomy 31:26

And every single one of them was nailed to the cross. They weren’t partially nailed; they were completely nailed to the cross. The apostles are clear on that. That’s why there is no way for us to justify a required observance of these feasts because the word of God is clear about what happened with them. Remember that the word of God does not contradict itself.

A side note:
--The Ten Commandments weren’t placed beside, but inside the ark of the covenant, because they are not against us (Deuteronomy 10: 1-2).
--The Ten Commandments are referred to as the law of liberty and not of bondage like the ceremonial laws (James 1:25, James 2:10-12).
--The Ten Commandments are spiritual and not carnal like the ceremonial laws (Romans 7:14).
--The Ten Commandments weren’t added, they existed already (even Satan broke a few of them)( Genesis 26:5).

Let’s see how these feasts are recorded in the New Testament (I used an online concordance) after Jesus’ death:

Passover:

--“But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.”~ Acts 18:21

He doesn’t mention the name, but bible critics say it was probably Passover. Now, why the interest in keeping the feast? He doesn’t give us a reason, but it was probably because he would have an opportunity of preaching the Gospel to great numbers of people that were still following old traditions.

Why do I reach this conclusion?
--Christ was our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7)
--Paul never teaches others to keep the ceremonial laws of Moses.
--He admonishes churches that start keeping these feasts
--He was the one who wrote that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross and no longer required
--He doesn’t observe this feast in other occasions. He was mostly traveling by that time of year and not keeping the feast so why the sudden interest?.

Feast of Unleavened Bread:

--Acts 12:3: And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further
to take Peter also. (Then were the days of UNLEAVENED BREAD.) [Herod killing ‘christians’ because it pleased the Jews]

--1 Corinthians 5:8: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the UNLEAVENED BREAD of sincerity and truth. [Is he keeping the feast here? No. He’s applying the symbolism of the feast spiritually]

Feast of tabernacles:

--There is no feast of tabernacles recorded after Jesus’ death.

~And yes, I remember the text in Zachariah.  But I'm sure it is about the return of Christ, because the chapter explains that Christ has returned and is now ruling over the earth, etc.~

Ok, just keep in mind that Zechariah 14:16-18 talks about not sending rain, plagues, and heathens…in Christ’ reign there won’t be any of that. Zechariah has a lot of symbolism. It doesn’t necessarily mean we will keep a feast in heaven. These feasts were added because our transgressions (Gal 3:19) and in heaven there won’t be any transgression.

I’m also enjoying this. It’s a great opportunity to search the scriptures and learn more about Jesus

God bless

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Nintendo-Dreamer In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-20 18:10:40 +0000 UTC]

(1.)Getting rid of leaven in bread means nothing.  We are not to work on bread, but in ourselves.  And this work is to be done every single day of our lives.

Could I not make the same argument against communion service?  I could say: "Breaking bread and drinking the wine means nothing.  I am to accept the body of Christ and His blood every day, so I don't need to break bread and drink the wine."

But of course, Christ instructed followers to do this literal practice in memory of Him.  So it's not silly to imagine such an observance is still important.  It's all about what the observance represents, yes?  The Lord's Supper—the New Testament way to observe Passover by breaking the bread and drinking the wine—is done in memory of Christ.  Just as Days of Unleavened Bread is done in memory of God leading us out of Egypt—sin and bondage.

Again, I could say: "Breaking bread for the body of Christ and drinking wine for His blood is useless, because Christ's body has already been broken and His blood has already been shed."


When Paul told the Corinthians to keep the feast, but not with wickedness, he said that because a wicked man was among them, and Paul instructed them to remove that man.  The context of 1 Corinthians 5 reveals the man was living in sexual sin.  So Paul said was saying it was pointless to keep the feast with wickedness and malice, if they would not keep the feast with sincerity and truth.

The only other possible meaning of Paul's instructions to "keep the feast not with old leaven of wickedness and evil" would have been like you said: He was saying to keep the feast in a spiritual manner, instead of literally.  In other words, he was telling the Corinthians, who he was writing to, to observe the feast in a 'new spiritual manner' because the 'old way' they celebrated the feast was wrong.  But this is impossible, because the Corinthians he wrote to were gentiles!  (1 Corinthians 12:2)  Yes, they were gentiles, which means they didn't previously know anything about the Days of Unleavened Bread, nor how to keep it!  The gentiles were pagan, served other gods and had other traditions.  So how could they keep a feast a 'new' way, if they never kept it the 'old' way?



(2.)  I agree the blood of Christ was to be shed once.  And I agree that once a Christian applies/accepts that blood to his or her life, it doesn't need to be applied/accepted again.  But for a new convert who has not accepted the sacrifice of Christ, to them, even though the blood of the Lamb has already been shed, the blood does not cover their door.  The blood of Christ has been shed, and only once, absolutely, but a lost person is not 'covered' by the Lamb's blood.  Therefore, they must apply that blood—accept Jesus' sacrifice—for salvation.  So applying the blood of the Lamb still spiritually happens.


The Day of Atonement came when Jesus died at the cross, because His blood atoned for our sins, something that the blood of the animals failed to do.

You seem to believe that the Day of Atonement represented Christ's blood atonement for sin.  But isn't that what Passover represents?  Christ was our passover Lamb.  The Day of Atonement was not about killing a lamb.  It was about sending a goat out into the wilderness.

The goat is called the "scapegoat" in the King James version of the Bible.  But in the original Hebrew, the word is Azazel, which means an evil demon.  So obviously, this goat being called an evil demon could not represent Christ!  The goat was to be grabbed by a "fit man" and then be cast "into the wilderness."  Just as Satan will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

You can read about this in Leviticus 16.  So the Day of Atonement was about casting an evil goat into the wilderness.  What does this have to do with Jesus Christ?

The word, atonement, actually means: At one ment.  It means to be at one with something.  And when Satan is cast into the bottomless pit to "deceive the nations no more," the nations will become at one with God.

If the Day of Atonement represents an atonement sacrifice by Christ, then why is He referenced with an evil demon goat being cast into the wilderness?  Furthermore, this would mess up the timeline of the Holy days.

Passover is 1.  It represents the sacrifice of Christ.

Then, Days of Unleavened Bread and Pentecost are 2 and 3.

Now, if the Feast of Trumpets, which is 4, represents the first coming of Christ, instead of His second coming, the timeline is thrown off!  Because Christ would have already been on earth for Passover, which is Holy day 1.

Day of Atonement is 5.  But if it represents the blood shed by Christ, again, the timeline would be off, because Christ already shed the blood in Holy day 1.


You quoted this verse to me: "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." (Revelation 21:3)

Yes, this takes place in Revelation 21, which is after Christ returns.  So the "tabernacle" will be with men 'after' Christ returns.  You pointed out this verse as a reference to how Feast of Tabernacles has already been fulfilled.  However, the return of Christ and this verse in Revelation has not happened, and will not happen until His return.

The verse prior to it says: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven" (Revelation 21:2).  Notice how it says the new Jerusalem is coming "out" of Heaven.  Heaven is not coming down with it.



(3)  Well, Paul did say: "I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem." (Acts 18:21)  Not sure if it's the Feast of Tabernacles, but Paul did seem very concerned about keeping it.  Most Bible critics think it was the Feast of Tabernacles, because of its location.


Here is my careful study I did of Colossians, chapter 2.

Verse 14: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

The word, ordinances, is the Greek word, Dogmasin, which means dogmas—man-made traditions.  Were the Holy days 'dogmas' and man-made traditions?  I don't think they were, because the Lord taught them in the Old Testament.

The Holy days were written in books, and not on stone.  So were the Holy days "handwritten ordinances"?  Yes.  However, I don't believe they were handwritten dogmas.


Verses 16 & 17: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

In the phrase, "the body is of Christ," the word, "is," has been added by the translators.  So the text actually reads: "Let no man therefore judge you... but the body of Christ."

Also, notice how Paul says the Holy days "are" a shadow of things to come.  He did not say the Holy days "were" a shadow of things to come.  He said they "are."


Verses 20-22: "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world... after the commandments and doctrines of men?"

Paul says the dogmas he mentioned earlier were "rudiments of the world," and "commandments and doctrines of men."  So again, this can't be talking about the Holy days.

In my study, I found that Paul was teaching the new converts not to let anyone judge them about keeping the Holy days, or new moons, or what they now ate or drank, or the Sabbath(s), except the Body of Christ—God Spirit could judge them—because these days "are" a shadow of things to come; while they have been freed from the old traditions they used to keep—the commandments and doctrines of men—dogmas.



(4)  In Galatians 4:9-11, Paul condemns the practice of observing days, and weeks, and months, and years.  In other words, long periods of time.  None of the Holy Days involve observing entire years!

The Galatians were gentiles, therefore they previously never kept any of the Holy days.  So how could they "return" to keeping the Holy days, when they never kept them?

The Galatians were known for honoring their gods with months, and sometimes, even years.


And about Zachariah 14, I think it's very plain.  The chapter reveals that Jesus Christ has returned and become "king" over the earth.  So it's definitely talking about His reign on earth.  And yes, I believe there will be a punishment, just as it says, to those who don't keep the Feast of Tabernacles, "from year to year."  I believe these scriptures are plain.  What else could they mean?

When Christ returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth.  The reward of the saved is not going to Heaven.  The reward of the saved is to become kings and priests, and teach everyone else on earth how to live God's way.

"he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them" (Revelation 2:26-27).

"And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:10)

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Corinthians 6:2)

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds" (Jude 1:14-15).

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)


Remember when Paul said in Galatians, chapter 3, that all Christians would inherit the promise made to Abraham?  Well, the promise made to Abraham was that Abraham would inherit the whole earth! (Romans 4:13)  So Christians are also promised to inherit the earth, as well as become "kings and priests" and "rule the nations" according to the Bible.

The question is this: If no sinners remain on earth, then who will they be kings and priests over?

So yes, I believe many sinners will remain on earth, and become taught and "judged" by the saints, and even corrected and punished when they sin, just as Zachariah 14 points out.


I await your reply.  God bless!~  

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Nilopher In reply to Nintendo-Dreamer [2014-10-23 07:44:38 +0000 UTC]

Hello

(1.) ~Could I not make the same argument against communion service?  I could say: "Breaking bread and drinking the wine means nothing.  I am to accept the body of Christ and His blood every day, so I don't need to break bread and drink the wine."
But of course, Christ instructed followers to do this literal practice in memory of Him.  So it's not silly to imagine such an observance is still important.  It's all about what the observance represents, yes?  The Lord's Supper—the New Testament way to observe Passover by breaking the bread and drinking the wine—is done in memory of Christ.  Just as Days of Unleavened Bread is done in memory of God leading us out of Egypt—sin and bondage.~

To Israel the memorial of the feast of unleavened bread was literal. They were literally delivered out of Egypt, and went out of Egypt in haste:

“Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.” ~Deuteronomy 16:3

They were literally remembering the day they left Egypt; they were literally remembering the day God delivered them out of slavery. God did wonderful things for them and they literally had to remember that in that feast and commemorate it.

The fact that God deliver us from the bondage of sin (associated more with Passover) doesn’t mean we have to keep the feast of unleavened bread. Deliverance from the bondage of sin is a spiritual symbolism we can take from that time God delivered Israel. He is all powerful; He can deliver us from sin, just like He delivered Israel from slavery. We don’t have to literally commemorate the day Israel left Egypt.

Every time God makes a covenant He gives His law (1 Chronicles 16:15-17, Genesis 26:5, Hebrews 10:16). In Israel we can see He added a ceremonial law, because He chose them (Deuteronomy 7:7-9, Exodus 19:6) to be the people through whom Jesus would be born (Romans 9:4-5), that’s why all those ceremonial laws pointed to Christ.

These feasts were part of the covenant. They had to obey God’s words and He would bless them, provide for them, protect them, and make them a great nation (Leviticus 26:3-13, Deuteronomy 28:1-14). There were also consequences if they violated the covenant (Leviticus 26:14-18). We know Israel broke this covenant (Psalm 78:10-11), we also know that there was going to be another covenant (Hebrews 8:7) because there was a fault on that covenant He made with Israel: people that didn’t want to follow God’s voice.

He gives us a new covenant (Hebrews 8:10) and corrects that fault in us (Ezekiel 36:26-28) He gives us His spirit to help us walk in His ways (Romans 8:6-9).

We don’t need the mediation of priests, sacrifices, and feasts because we have now Christ as our mediator, “he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.” (Hebrews 8:6).

In Hebrews 9:1-14 we read:
“Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

Those ceremonial laws that pointed towards Christ couldn’t make them perfect, and were temporary. That’s why they were merely shadows:

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.”~ Hebrews 10:1

~Again, I could say: "Breaking bread for the body of Christ and drinking wine for His blood is useless, because Christ's body has already been broken and His blood has already been shed."~

Yes, but this breaking of bread and drinking of wine are not pointing forward to something. It doesn’t consist on sacrifices and offerings with blood of animals that can’t save us. It consists on the remembrance of Christ’ blood: that is perfect and without spot, is only shed once, and can give us eternal redemption. That is a huge difference between the Lord’s Supper and the sacrificial system of the ceremonial laws. The blood of Christ is not useless, whereas the blood of an animal is.  So because of that it wouldn’t be the same argument, because we cannot compare Christ’ blood with the blood of animals. We cannot compare Christ’ perfect sacrifice, with the useless sacrifices of animals.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” ~ Hebrews 9:28

God did away with the Passover that pointed to His death, but He also gave us something in exchange to do in memory of His death. (Luke 22:19). If He did that with Passover, why He didn’t do it with the other feasts? If He wanted us to keep new “feasts” that carried on with the symbolism of the old feasts, “feasts” that were a memorial and not shadows, why He didn’t give us instructions regarding that like He did with the Lord’s supper? He certainly made other changes (Matthew 5:38-39).

“And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.” ~1 Corinthians 11:24

They were shadows, they pointed to Christ and His ministry, once Christ came there was no more need for shadows, because now we have the real thing.

~When Paul told the Corinthians to keep the feast, but not with wickedness, he said that because a wicked man was among them, and Paul instructed them to remove that man.  The context of 1 Corinthians 5 reveals the man was living in sexual sin.  So Paul said was saying it was pointless to keep the feast with wickedness and malice, if they would not keep the feast with sincerity and truth.
The only other possible meaning of Paul's instructions to "keep the feast not with old leaven of wickedness and evil" would have been like you said: He was saying to keep the feast in a spiritual manner, instead of literally.  In other words, he was telling the Corinthians, who he was writing to, to observe the feast in a 'new spiritual manner' because the 'old way' they celebrated the feast was wrong.  But this is impossible, because the Corinthians he wrote to were gentiles!  (1 Corinthians 12:2)  Yes, they were gentiles, which means they didn't previously know anything about the Days of Unleavened Bread, nor how to keep it!  The gentiles were pagan, served other gods and had other traditions.  So how could they keep a feast a 'new' way, if they never kept it the 'old' way?~

I think (I could be wrong, you tell me) that you’re mixing the literal feast keeping with the spiritual meaning. The spiritual meaning will always be there because Christ will always live, but the literal feast is useless because they were pointing to Christ and to what would mean every aspect of His perfect sacrifice.

And yes, Paul’s instructions were indeed to keep the feast in a spiritual way because it was meaningless to keep it in a literal way. Well, he was just using the symbolism and spiritual meaning of the feast, because he wasn’t talking to Corinth about keeping feasts in that chapter. That’s why is important to read everything in context. 1 Corinth 5 is not talking about feasts. Is talking about sexual depravation:

--“It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.” (1 Corinth 5:5)
--“I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:” (1 Corinth 5:9)
--“Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.” ~(1 Corinth 5:10)
--“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.” (1 Corinth 5:11)

So it is clear (at least for me) that the focus of Paul wasn’t in keeping or not keeping feasts, but he applied the spiritual symbolism of leaven. Just like a bit of leaven can damage a whole lump (1Co 5:6), a single Christian that welcomes sin voluntarily can damage the faith of his brothers and sisters. We therefore must purge ourselves from old sinful habits, to be pure before the Lord (1Co 5:7). Therefore we must leave malice and wickedness behind and be sincere and truthful (1Co 5:8).

The Gentiles didn’t keep the feasts, but some of them knew about the feasts, and when they were converted to Christianity some of them were taught the wrong idea by some Jews that to become fully Christian they needed to adopt Jewish customs like circumcision and ceremonial laws (these Jews are called judaizers). But that wasn’t the problem in Corinth. The problems in Corinth were about division in the church (1 Co 1: 10-13), fornication and sexual depravation (1 Co 5, 1 Co 6:18), Idolatry (1 Co 10:14), etc. So Paul wasn’t advising them in how to keep the feasts, his advices were about leaving sin behind. It wasn’t necessary for gentiles to learn about feast keeping, and Paul didn’t teach them to keep any old or new feast. But he did use the spiritual symbolism of the feast of unleavened bread: he told them to put away the leaven, put away sin. He told them to get rid of their old sinful customs (purge out the old leaven) and to be unleavened/sinless for the Lord (1 Corinthians 5:7). Is as if they were keeping the feast but in a spiritual way, not because they kept it the old way or because they needed to keep it the new way, but because they needed to apply that spiritual symbolism to their lives. This letter to the church in Corinth in 1 Corinthians wasn’t focused in feast keeping, so we must be careful when we take parts of it out of its context to justify other things. We can’t say that 1Co 5:8 supports the observance of the feast of unleavened bread, because Paul wasn’t teaching them anything about Jewish feasts.

The church in Corinth didn’t only have gentiles; it also had Jews (Act 18:1-4). Paul was there a year and a half (Act 18:11) preaching the gospel and some Jews accused him saying: “…This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.” (Act 18:13).

Contrary to what law?

By law, he wasn’t talking about the Ten Commandments since Paul taught others to keep them (1 Thessalonians 1:9, Acts 15:20, Hebrews 4:4, Ephesians 6:1-3, Romans 13:9, Romans 7:3, Romans 13:9, Romans 7:7).

‘Persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law’ meant that Paul didn’t taught gentiles to worship God through the ceremonial law, that was something that angered the Jews that were still fixated in the ceremonial law.

(2.)~I agree the blood of Christ was to be shed once.  And I agree that once a Christian applies/accepts that blood to his or her life, it doesn't need to be applied/accepted again.  But for a new convert who has not accepted the sacrifice of Christ, to them, even though the blood of the Lamb has already been shed, the blood does not cover their door.  The blood of Christ has been shed, and only once, absolutely, but a lost person is not 'covered' by the Lamb's blood.  Therefore, they must apply that blood—accept Jesus' sacrifice—for salvation.  So applying the blood of the Lamb still spiritually happens.~

Accepting Jesus sacrifice has nothing to do with applying the blood of Christ.

“Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”~Hebrews 10:9-12

The blood was applied to all humanity when He died on the cross. It was applied that one time only (Hebrews 9:28), and it provided us all with eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12), a redemption we must accept to have.
Applying and accepting are two different things. The shedding and appliance of blood was done in Calvary. Jesus part was done, now is our turn (unbelievers and believers) to do our part. Appliance of blood was Jesus' part, the acceptance is our part.

It is not our duty as sinners to apply the blood; that duty belonged to the high priest (Lev 1:4-9). Just as our high priest now is Christ (Hebrews 4:14), it was His duty to apply the blood, but because His blood was perfect, it was only applied once (at the cross).

~The Day of Atonement came when Jesus died at the cross, because His blood atoned for our sins, something that the blood of the animals failed to do.
You seem to believe that the Day of Atonement represented Christ's blood atonement for sin.  But isn't that what Passover represents?  Christ was our passover Lamb.  The Day of Atonement was not about killing a lamb.  It was about sending a goat out into the wilderness.
The goat is called the "scapegoat" in the King James version of the Bible.  But in the original Hebrew, the word is Azazel, which means an evil demon.  So obviously, this goat being called an evil demon could not represent Christ!  The goat was to be grabbed by a "fit man" and then be cast "into the wilderness."  Just as Satan will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit.
You can read about this in Leviticus 16.  So the Day of Atonement was about casting an evil goat into the wilderness.  What does this have to do with Jesus Christ?
The word, atonement, actually means: At one ment.  It means to be at one with something.  And when Satan is cast into the bottomless pit to "deceive the nations no more," the nations will become at one with God.~

Passover was not exactly about atonement because there was no sin offering, it was about deliverance. The Lord passed over the doors that contained the blood of the passover lamb (Exodus 12:23).

The Day of Atonement is more than what I’ve told you in the other replies. I just tried to present it as simple as I could.

In the day of atonement a sacrifice was also made (Leviticus 16:6-9) and because it was a sin offering, it brought reconciliation, something Christ did in the cross (Colossians 1:20).
 
Atonement or ‘katallage’ means to cover, restoration, reconciliation. Sin causes separation from God (Isaiah 59:2). When Adam and Eve sinned at the beginning our relationship with God was damaged, they created a gap between Him and humanity.

“At one” with something is just the reconciliation of humans and God. We are His by creation (Colossians 1:16) and redemption (Revelation 5:9). With His sacrifice in the cross He atoned for our sins, and reconciled us with God (Colossians 1:20).

"That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." ~2 Corinthians 5:19 

The Tabernacle and the Temple can give us a clear picture of how sin separates us from God. In those times only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies by passing through the heavy veil that hung from ceiling to floor. That veil created a barrier between the man and God (Leviticus 16:2), just like sin. Once a year on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest would enter and offer a blood sacrifice to cover the sins of the people. But the very moment Jesus died on the cross “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” (Matthew 27:51). That only meant the ending of all those feasts, all those sacrifices, and all that earthly mediation. We were restituted, reconciled; we were at one with God.

The Day of Atonement consisted in:
--The purification of the priesthood, the sanctuary and the people (Lev 16:16-19, 30, 33, 34).
--The expulsion of Azazel, the scapegoat, with all the sins of Israel (Lev 16:10, 20-22).

Israel defiled the sanctuary with their sins, because these sins were figuratively deposited there (Numbers 28) until the Day of Atonement.
When the priest laid his hands upon the victim, it was a transference of sin from the offerer to the victim (Lev 1:4; 4:4, 24, 29, 33). When the animal was killed its blood stained (by instruction of God) the altar and the sins were deposited in the sanctuary. The purification of the sanctuary—using the first goat—represented the atonement of all their sins (lev 16:19-20).

The ceremony with Azazel was done after the atonement in the Holy of Holies of the sanctuary (Lev 16: 20-21). There wasn't the shedding of blood with Azazel, because this goat doesn’t represent Christ. All the sins accumulated in the sanctuary were transferred to that second goat (lev 16:10), and it was sent to the wilderness to die. This goat represents Satan, because he (is) will be held responsible for the sins of this world, and will be bound a thousand years and then will be devoured by fire from the Lord (Rev. 20:9).

The earthly sanctuary was a copy and a shadow of the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 8:5, Rev. 11:19, Rev. 11:19, Rev. 1:12, Rev. 8:3). Christ did away with all that on the cross. We no longer need earthly mediators (high priests), sacrifices, and offerings, or the feast of the Day of Atonement, because that is Jesus' work. Now we have the real thing. He is our high priest and offering. That's why there is no need for us to do the same on earth. What we do will be useless, because it is not by what we do, but by what Jesus did on the cross and is doing now in the heavenly sanctuary (Heb 9:23-24).

“If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood" (Hebrews 7:11), there would have been no need for Christ to come. But because these services/ceremonies, priesthood, and the sanctuary were symbolic (Hebrews 9:9; 8:5). It was necessary for Christ to come and “put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Hebrews 9:26). The effect of Christ’s coming is described as "disannulling" (Hebrews 7:18), making "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13), "abolishing/taken away" (Hebrews 10:9) all the Levitical services associated with the sanctuary, and offerings.

The fact that Christ is in the heavenly sanctuary now (Hebrews 9:24, Rev. 14:6, 7, 9) and that Satan hasn't been casted to the lake of fire (Rev. 20), doesn't mean we need to observe the feast. All the functions of the feast were carried and are being carried out by Christ. There is no need for an earthly ritual because they would mean nothing. We either have the faulty earthly ceremony or the perfect heavenly "ceremony", we can't have both.

In Christ return there is no atonement. That day He comes to reward the righteous (they go to the heavenly homes) and to punish the wicked (this is done after the thousand years). We are either in the book of life or not:

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”~ Revelation 22:11-12

~If the Day of Atonement represents an atonement sacrifice by Christ, then why is He referenced with an evil demon goat being cast into the wilderness?  Furthermore, this would mess up the timeline of the Holy days.
Passover is 1.  It represents the sacrifice of Christ.
Then, Days of Unleavened Bread and Pentecost are 2 and 3.
Now, if the Feast of Trumpets, which is 4, represents the first coming of Christ, instead of His second coming, the timeline is thrown off!  Because Christ would have already been on earth for Passover, which is Holy day 1.
Day of Atonement is 5.  But if it represents the blood shed by Christ, again, the timeline would be off, because Christ already shed the blood in Holy day 1.~

Feasts timeline:
Spring Feasts (a) are the inauguration of Israel’s redemption while the Fall Feasts (b) its consummation:

--1a) Passover: inauguration of Israel’s salvation story.

Literally: God delivered them from death and out of Egypt, out of the bondage of slavery.
It didn’t contain a sin offering, Passover wasn’t for atonement.

“For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.” Exodus 12:12

“And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.” ~Exodus 12:14

This pointed to Christ: As our Passover He can deliver us from the bondage of sin.

--2a) Unleavened bread: reminded them of the circumstances of the exodus (Exodus 12:39, Deuteronomy 16:3), and it was a call to holy living (Leviticus 23:6-8).

--3a) Firstfruits: They brought their first fruits in thanksgiving (Deuteronomy 26:10). To consecrate and inaugurate the spring grain harvest.

--4a)Feast of weeks (Pentecost): Period of harvest.

--5b) Feast of trumpets: A call to repentance, because the Day of Atonement was coming.

The feast of trumpets doesn't represent any coming of Christ. It served as warning that the Day of Atonement was near, and they had to come to repentance. This goes in accord that before any judgment God sends a warning.
It is important to note that the bible only tells us that it was a day of blowing, but it never tells us what instrument they used. (Historically they used a shofar).
It was a wakeup call for them to abandon their evil ways and return to God to be ready for the day of atonement.

--6b) The day of atonement: final atonement for the sins of Israel (as I explained above).

--7b) The feast of tabernacles: commemorated God’s protection in the wilderness

~You quoted this verse to me: "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." (Revelation 21:3)
Yes, this takes place in Revelation 21, which is after Christ returns.  So the "tabernacle" will be with men 'after' Christ returns.  You pointed out this verse as a reference to how Feast of Tabernacles has already been fulfilled.  However, the return of Christ and this verse in Revelation has not happened, and will not happen until His return.
The verse prior to it says: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven" (Revelation 21:2).  Notice how it says the new Jerusalem is coming "out" of Heaven.  Heaven is not coming down with it.~

No, I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. I didn’t show you that verse to indicate that the feast of tabernacles was fulfilled. I showed you this verse as an example that even though the feasts are fulfilled and done away, their symbolisms and spiritual meaning can still be used and applied.

(3)~Well, Paul did say: "I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem." (Acts 18:21)  Not sure if it's the Feast of Tabernacles, but Paul did seem very concerned about keeping it.  Most Bible critics think it was the Feast of Tabernacles, because of its location.~

Actually is the first time I heard that critics think is the feast of tabernacles. In all the bible commentaries I’ve read most of them said it was Passover because of the time of the year (March/April).
The feast of the Tabernacles was the last feast of the fall feasts (September/October and it wasn’t that time yet).

~Here is my careful study I did of Colossians, chapter 2.
Verse 14: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."
The word, ordinances, is the Greek word, Dogmasin, which means dogmas—man-made traditions.  Were the Holy days 'dogmas' and man-made traditions?  I don't think they were, because the Lord taught them in the Old Testament.
The Holy days were written in books, and not on stone.  So were the Holy days "handwritten ordinances"?  Yes.  However, I don't believe they were handwritten dogmas.~

That’s a very interesting way of seeing it and presenting it but I’m sorry, in that I cannot agree.

Dogma, means a law, decree, or ordinance. Whose decree or ordinance? That would depend of the context it is used in.

“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”~ Colossians 2:13-15

Handwriting of ordinances in the same sentence of circumcision, forgiveness of trespasses and cross can’t possibly refer to something ‘man-made’. He’s not doing away man made traditions. He didn’t give us “man-made” traditions why would He do away with them in the cross? His sacrifice on the cross wasn’t for a worldly purpose. 

“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” ~ Eph 2-14-16

God gave us ordinances; in Hebrew they have another word (chuqqah) but the same meaning:

--Leviticus 18:4: “Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ORDINANCES, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God”

--Numbers 9:12: “They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ORDINANCES of the passover they shall keep it.”

--Ezekiel 11:20: “That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ORDINANCES, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.”

--Ezekiel 44:5: “And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ORDINANCES of the house of the LORD,
and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary

“Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge (mishmereth), and his statutes (chuqqah), and his judgments (mishpat), and his commandments (mitsvah), alway.” ~Deuteronomy 11:1

~Verses 16 & 17: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
In the phrase, "the body is of Christ," the word, "is," has been added by the translators.  So the text actually reads: "Let no man therefore judge you... but the body of Christ."~

True. Every word in italic in the bible was added by the translators.

~Also, notice how Paul says the Holy days "are" a shadow of things to come.  He did not say the Holy days "were" a shadow of things to come.  He said they "are."~

They are a shadow, the sacrifices with animals are shadows of the perfect sacrifice god did for us, the priesthood is a shadow of Christ our high priest, the sanctuary is a shadow of the real sanctuary in heaven, the ark of the covenant is a shadow of the ark in heaven. When we go to heaven we will be with our high priest, we will be in God’s temple, in heaven these things are the reality and not shadows.

~Verses 20-22: "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world... after the commandments and doctrines of men?"
Paul says the dogmas he mentioned earlier were "rudiments of the world," and "commandments and doctrines of men."  So again, this can't be talking about the Holy days.
In my study, I found that Paul was teaching the new converts not to let anyone judge them about keeping the Holy days, or new moons, or what they now ate or drank, or the Sabbath(s), except the Body of Christ—God Spirit could judge them—because these days "are" a shadow of things to come; while they have been freed from the old traditions they used to keep—the commandments and doctrines of men—dogmas.”

Colossians 2:20-22:
“Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

He describes these commandments, and doctrines of men: ordinances with touch not, handle not, things that perish with the using. Jesus doesn’t need to nail to the cross ordinances of men (that was not the purpose of the cross), ordinances, commandments, and doctrines of men perish with the using, Christ doesn’t need to nail that to the cross. God’s ordinances stand forever, unless He puts a stop to them. Men’s ordinances perish with the using; God doesn’t need to put a stop to that.

God didn’t die on the cross because we sinned against ordinances of men, God died in the cross because we sinned against Him. That’s why I cannot agree that what He nailed to the cross were commandments of men, because that wasn’t the purpose of the cross.

(4)~In Galatians 4:9-11, Paul condemns the practice of observing days, and weeks, and months, and years.  In other words, long periods of time.  None of the Holy Days involve observing entire years!
The Galatians were gentiles, therefore they previously never kept any of the Holy days.  So how could they "return" to keeping the Holy days, when they never kept them?
The Galatians were known for honoring their gods with months, and sometimes, even years.~

It is important to read in context, to know the theme of the letter, and why it was written to the Galatians. Not all gentiles have the same problems. When Paul writes a letter the theme is perfectly clear.

For example when he wrote to the Corinthians, one of the things he admonished them about was Idolatry:

--“Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” ~1 Corinthians 10: 6-7
--“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.” ~1 Corinthians 10:14
--“What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?  But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.  Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?” ~1 Corinthians 10:19-22
--“But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:”~1 Corinthians 10:28

Now read Galatians. He is not talking about Idolatry. That wasn’t the problem in Galatians.

What are called ‘judaizing false teachers’ were undermining the doctrine of justification by faith; these people were teaching that Gentiles first needed to become Jewish proselytes and observe the Law of Moses, with all the Jewish festivals.

“These teachers argued that Gentile Christians, if they wanted to share in Abraham's blessing, must be circumcised and submit themselves to the Old Testament Law. Because this requirement contradicted the message Paul preached, the false teachers also claimed that Paul did not have proper authority.”~ Walter A Elwell

The main themes of Galatians (justification by faith) are the inability of the law to justify (Galatians 2:16), the believer crucifixion with Christ (Galatians 2:20), Abraham justification by faith (Galatians 3:6), the just shall live by faith (Galatians 3:11), believers are God’s spiritual/adopted children (Galatians 4:5), the importance of walking in the spirit (Galatians 5:16) etc.

Matthew Poole's Commentary:
“If we had any evidence that these Galatians were relapsed to their Gentile superstitions, these terms might be understood of such days, &c. as they kept in honour to their idols. But the apostle, throughout the whole Epistle, not reflecting upon them for any such gross apostacy (as returning to the vanities of the heathen in which they formerly lived); but only for Judaizing, and using the ceremonies of the Jewish law, as necessary to be observed, besides their believing in Christ, for their justification”

Once you understand the theme of Galatians read the verses again:
“But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” ~ Galatians 4:9-11

They once were in bondage of sin following other gods, now they wanted to be in bondage again but in the bondage of the ceremonial law and other Jewish traditions.

For example:
--Days: fast-days, feast-days like Passover, new moons. (Romans 14:6; Ex 13:4, Luke 18:12).
--Months: Abib (Exodus 13:4; Exodus 23:15; Exodus 34:18), Ethenim (1 Kings 8:2).
--Times (kairos: seasons): Unleavened bread, Pentecost, Feast of Tabernacles, etc. (2 Chronicles 8:13):

“These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.”~ Leviticus 23:4

--Years: sabbatical years, occurring every seventh year (Leviticus 25:2-7).

~And about Zachariah 14, I think it's very plain.  The chapter reveals that Jesus Christ has returned and become "king" over the earth.  So it's definitely talking about His reign on earth.  And yes, I believe there will be a punishment, just as it says, to those who don't keep the Feast of Tabernacles, "from year to year."  I believe these scriptures are plain.  What else could they mean?
When Christ returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth.  The reward of the saved is not going to Heaven.  The reward of the saved is to become kings and priests, and teach everyone else on earth how to live God's way.
Remember when Paul said in Galatians, chapter 3, that all Christians would inherit the promise made to Abraham?  Well, the promise made to Abraham was that Abraham would inherit the whole earth! (Romans 4:13)  So Christians are also promised to inherit the earth, as well as become "kings and priests" and "rule the nations" according to the Bible.
The question is this: If no sinners remain on earth, then who will they be kings and priests over?
So yes, I believe many sinners will remain on earth, and become taught and "judged" by the saints, and even corrected and punished when they sin, just as Zachariah 14 points out.
When God comes we will go to heaven
He was preparing us homes there~

About Jesus coming and Zechariah:

Jesus is going to descend from the skies as visibly, as tangibly, as He ascended (Acts 1:11). The earth will be practically destroyed by an earthquake (Revelation 6:12-14; 16:18-20). The righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (Matthew 25:32; Matthew 13:40-43).

Those who refused to acknowledge Jesus as Saviour and Lord will be in despair and will pray for the rocks to fall on them and hide them from Him (Revelation 6:15-17). The wicked will be slain, and destroyed by the brightness of Jesus coming (Psalm 110:5-6, Revelation 6:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Jeremiah 25:33).

Revelation 19:18 says: that the birds of the air will "eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great"

The righteous will rejoice in Christ’ coming: “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.” (Isaiah 25:9)

The righteous dead will be raised incorruptible and immortal (1 Cor. 15:52, 53). “The dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess. 4:16). This is the resurrection of life (John 5:29). The living righteous will be also changed (1 Cor. 15:52). Then together they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). In other words the Lord will gather all the redeemed (Matt. 24:31; 25:32-34; Mark 13:27) to the heavenly home Christ has prepared (John 14:3).

The earth becomes desolate: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled." (Jer. 4:23-25).

Satan will also be bound during the thousand years (Revelation 20:2-3) “he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season”. The reason why Satan cannot tempt anyone during the thousand years is that, with the righteous in heaven and the wicked dead (Rev 20:5), there will be no one to tempt.

Revelation 20:4-6 says that the saved will be "given authority to judge…They will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years". They will judge the world, and angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). This is the time of the judgment of Satan and his angels (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6).

“The millennial judgment does not decide who is to be saved or lost. God makes that decision before the Second Advent; all those who were not either resurrected or translated then are forever lost. The judgment in which the righteous participate serves the purpose of answering any questions the righteous may have as to why the wicked are lost. God wants those to whom He has given eternal life to have full confidence in His leadership, so He will reveal to them the operations of His mercy and justice.”~quote by unknown author

At the end of the thousands years all of the wicked will be resurrected (Revelation 20:5), this is the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29), and Satan will be released from his prison. (Revelation 20:7). When the wicked are resurrected Satan will have people to join him in his rebellion against God (that’s what means to be released from the prison).

The holy city will descend from heaven (Revelation 21:2) and Satan and the wicked “shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” (Revelations 20:8-9).

They will be destroyed with fire, and will be punished with eternal death (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23). The lake of fire in Revelation 20:14-15 is followed by the re-creation of our planet into "a new heaven and a new earth" (Revelation 21:1, 2 Peter 3:13). The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18-19).

“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” ~Revelation 21:4

In God’s second coming those that are not in the book of life won’t be saved, they will die, and after a thousand years they will be resurrected (resurrection of damnation) to be destroyed by God’s fire. There is no more hope, teachings, or correction for them. They will perish (Psalm 37:20), will be destroyed (Psalm 145:20), will die (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23, Romans 1:32, Romans 6:21, James 1:15), will be devoured by the fire (Psalm 21:9), shall not be (Psalm 37:10), shall be cut off and rooted out (Proverbs 2:22, Psalm 37:9, Psalm 37:34), shall be ashes (Malachi 4:3), into smoke shall they consume away (Psalm 37:20), as wax melteth before the fire (Psalm 68:2), shall be punished with everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), will be burn up and it shall leave them neither root nor branch (Malachi 4:1, Matthew 13:30).

That’s why I say Zechariah has a lot of symbolism. There won’t be plagues and heathens in Christ’ reign, because ‘there shall be no more curse’ (Rev 22:3), no more sorrow, crying, or pain (Rev 21:4). There will be no more sin (Heb 9:26, 1 John 3:8).

“What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.” ~ Nahum 1:9

By the way sorry if there are a lot of grammatical mistakes my first language is Spanish so this conversation for me is bible study + English practice lol

God bless!

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Nintendo-Dreamer In reply to Nilopher [2014-12-07 21:33:18 +0000 UTC]

Hi there!  Sorry for my late reply.  Our chats are always so long, that when I finally did have time to reply to you, I wanted to ensure I was able to read everything you wrote me.

I see, understand and respect your point of views.  However, I believe the gospel is about a coming Kingdom of God that will teach and train all nations to learn God's way.  And since the Holy Days, I believe, were indeed kept in the New Testament church era, I believe these days represent that message which the world is blind to.

I hope you understand, and I appreciate your time and conversation.  Again, I respect your beliefs, and I wish you good health and all the best.

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Nilopher In reply to Nintendo-Dreamer [2014-12-22 01:36:22 +0000 UTC]

Of course I understand, I also respect your beliefs
Thank you and God bless!

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Nilopher In reply to SingABrightSong [2014-09-23 01:02:34 +0000 UTC]

“One way I've thought about it is that the Sabbath is a day of Rest, not necessarily worship.”

that’s why I made the emphasis on holy day of rest (: because everyday should be a day of worship.

“Not specifically related, but related to the topic in general: SDA doctrines have always come across to me as treating the writings of the Protestant Reformers as almost half-sacred.”

I think that in every Christian denomination some people take the writings of their fathers, prophets, reformers etc above the bible. That is wrong and probably also a tactic of satan, as they focus more on the writings and traditions instead of the word of God.

That’s why when I’m explaining my beliefs (as you can see I’m a SDA) I only use the bible. ^^

God bless

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-09-23 01:01:19 +0000 UTC]

Key words in Col 2:14-16: “that was against us, which was contrary to us”

“Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;” ~ Ezekiel 20:24-25

Statues that were not good. According to the bible that is not talking about the Ten Commandments because they are just, holy, good and perfect (Romans 7:12, James 1:25). They are talking about all the ceremonial laws that required sacrifices to be forgiven for their sins. Those were not good; those were contrary to them, because only Christ can save.

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” ~ Colossians 2:16-17

The Sabbath (the seventh day) existed before sin, so it can’t be a shadow of things to come, because it’s a thing that was and that will be.
The shadows of things to come were the offerings and sacrifices done in Sabbaths that weren’t the seventh day as Leviticus 23 explains.

“The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.” ~ Deuteronomy 5:3

Exactly! That’s why it’s important to understand what the covenant was about. And also that’s why we can know the covenant wasn’t the Ten Commandments because the Lord didn’t made that covenant with their fathers but the Ten Commandments existed and were being followed before mount Sinai.

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-09-23 15:17:30 +0000 UTC]

Can you show me where in the Bible it says, the 7th day Sabbath pre-existed sin? Ummm, nowhere...
There is no Biblical indication that God created the 7th day as Sabbath before the fall because there is no command to humankind to observe a weekly rest. The only command that Adam received was 'don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil'.

Umm, have you by any chance read 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, where Paul calls the laws written and engraven on stones(AKA the 10 Commandments) 'the ministration of death'?

2 Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Seems like Good ol' Bro. Paul thought the same thing about the 10 Commandments, that he thought about the rest of the Old Law.

The Bible makes no distiction in that Passage whether the Sabbath just refers to the other Sabbaths, or all of them.

There were several things in the Torah, that are said to last forever using the same words that are used for the 7th day Sabbath (Circumcision, the Passover, the Levitical Priesthood).
Both Circumcision and the Passover preceded the giving of the 10 Commandments, and they are said to last forever, but they're not applied to us today. 

Circumcision was given to Abraham, but it is called part of the Law of Moses. It was made a perpetual covenant just like the Sabbath was (Genesis 17:13).
The same can be said for the Passover(Exodus 12:14,17,20).

Biblically the 10 Commandments are grouped in with the rest of the laws given to Moses. 
Isn't it worthy to consider that Jesus' 2 greatest commandments aren't even in the 10, but in the Law added later?

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Deut. 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18b
....but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:

It is clear that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, saw no distinction between the 10 Commandments and the rest of the Law.

To say that the 10 Commandments are separate from the rest of the Law, is like saying the Bill of Rights are separate from the rest of the U.S. Constitution.

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-10-06 23:05:52 +0000 UTC]

~“Can you show me where in the Bible it says, the 7th day Sabbath pre-existed sin? Ummm, nowhere...”~

Ummm yes, here it is, before sin:

“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested (shâbath) on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” ~Genesis 2:2-3

~“There is no Biblical indication that God created the 7th day as Sabbath before the fall because there is no command to humankind to observe a weekly rest.”~

God blessed and sanctified the seventh day because he rested (shabath) on it. People think there is no command to observe it because the only time that it is recorded as part of the law is when God gave Moses the Ten Commandments. But God thinks differently (Exodus 16:28); The commandments, including the seventh day already existed and were supposed to be followed, before the fall, and before mount Sinai. Even Abraham kept God’s commandments (Genesis 26:5).

God proved Israel to see it they were keeping His commandments. God told them the Sabbath day was a holy day of rest. He told them that before there was “a command to Human kind” to observe them:

“And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning” ~Exodus 16:23

“And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.” ~Exodus 16:25

“Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, in it there shall be none.” ~ Exodus 16:26

“See, for that the Lord hath given you the Sabbath…”~Exodus 16:29

“So the people rested on the seventh day” ~Exodus 16:30

God even questioned them: “How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?” (Exodus 16:28). Because it turned out they weren’t keeping God’s commandments so He had to write them for them so they wouldn’t forget.
There was never a biblical indication that there were commandments to be followed, but it is clear God expected them to follow His commandments before Mount Sinai. God expected them to rest on His holy day of rest.
People say there were no Commandments before the fall. Why? Because they are not mentioned in detail before? Because there was no command to human kind to observe them? It is that the reason people think they didn’t exist before the fall? If that’s the reason Satan is not guilty of breaking God’s Law. 

~"Umm, have you by any chance read 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, where Paul calls the laws written and engraven on stones(AKA the 10 Commandments) 'the ministration of death'?"~

It was also Paul who wrote this:

The law is: holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12), righteousness (Romans 9:31). For we know that the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14)

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” ~Romans 3:31

So he is either contradicting himself or we are misunderstanding him. The law can’t be bad and good at the same time. It is important to understand what is the ‘ministration of death’.

Israel was in sin, to a point that they couldn’t see Moses’ face that was covered with God’s glory. That would bring them death.

“Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.” ~2 Corinthians 3:3

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;” ~Hebrews 10:16

In the covenant we are now we have the same law, but it is written in our hearts and minds ‘with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.’. Because ‘the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life’(2 Corinthians 3:6) and the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14).

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” ~2 Corinthians 3:17. The law of God is also called the law of liberty (James 1:25).

~“There were several things in the Torah, that are said to last forever using the same words that are used for the 7th day Sabbath (Circumcision, the Passover, the Levitical Priesthood).”~

Same words that are used for the 7th day Sabbath?

These are the words used for the 7th day: (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11):

---God blessed the seventh day

---God sanctified (qadash), hollowed, purified, appointed, prepared, observed, consecrated, set appart the seventh day

---Because in that day He rested (Shabath) from all His work

Let’s look for these words in Genesis  17:

“And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you……

…… and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.” (Genesis 17: 9-11, 13)

And the words in Exodus 12:

“Your lamb shall be without blemish

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.” (Exodus 12: 5, 14, 17,24)

Yup, not the same words. The feast in Exodus 12 even contained a lamb without blemish.

~“Biblically the 10 Commandments are grouped in with the rest of the laws given to Moses.”~

They are presented in detail in the same bible book, but there is a distinction. The word of God refers to one as God’s Law and to the other as the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 4:13-14, Daniel 9:11). They are different. 

“Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” ~2 Kings 21:8

--One was written in the book of Moses (2 Chronicles 35:12) the other was written in stone tables with the finger of God (Exodus 31:18)

--One was placed in the side of the ark (Deuteronomy 31:26) the other inside (Exodus 40:20)

--One ended at the cross (Ephesians 2:15), the other didn’t (Luke 16:17)

--One was added because of sin (Galatians 3:19), the other existed and pointed to sin (Romans 7:7)

--One was against us (Colossians 2:14), the other was not (1 John 5:3)

--One was carnal (Hebrews 7:16) the other was spiritual (Romans 7:14)

~“Isn't it worthy to consider that Jesus' 2 greatest commandments aren't even in the 10, but in the Law added later?”~

Those two commandments summarize the ten commandments. As he said: “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”(Matthew 22:40)

If we love God with all our hearts we won’t have other gods, we won’t make idols, we will not take His name in vain, and we will remember His holy day.
If we love our neighbor we will honor our parents, we won’t commit murder, we won’t commit adultery, we won’t steal, we won’t bear false witness, and we won’t covet.

God bless!

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-07 13:44:22 +0000 UTC]

It should be noted that is says God rested and sanctified that day, but it doesn't show him instructing Adam and Eve to follow his example, now does it?
The only commandments God gave the first humans before the fall were 'be fruitful and multiply, and don't eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil'. 
Jesus did not rest on the Sabbath, he performed miracles, allowed his disciples to gather food to eat.

my point was that like the Sabbath, both Circumcision and the Passover were said to last forever, but according to the scripture they are all changed and done away with.

Umm, actually they are referred as the same or by either name. For example, Jesus refers to the 5th commandment as being from Moses in Mark 7:10. In John 7:19-23 Jesus alludes to the both the written law and the 10 Commandments as the Law of Moses.

1 Chronicles 16:40 mentions burnt offerings as' ....written in the law of the LORD, which he commanded Israel'. 
2 Chronicles 31:3 refers to the burnt offerings, Sabbaths, and new moons as the Law of God. Later, In 2 Chronicles 34:14 hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the Lord, given by Moses.


Malachi 4:4 called the laws given in Horeb, 'the Law of Moses my servant'.

2 Corinthians 3 refers to Moses as the giver of the 10 Commandments. 

It should be noted that the 10 Commandments were incorporated into the Law 'placed outside the Ark' at least twice when Moses wrote the whole law down, In a way the 10 Commandments were part of the written law of Moses.

It is not just the 10 commandments that pointed out sin. If we just went by the 10 commandments, homosexuality would be okay, bestiality would be okay, pre-marital sex would be okay, necromancy would be okay, and drunkedness would be okay.


The only division the Jews view between the two groupings is that the 10 Commandments are the Sinai Covenant, they do not view them as separate laws. It was this covenant that was abolished by Christ  when he died(Hebrews 9).

The Law of Christ is not the continuation of anything from the Old Law, it is a revised version. Indeed the ceremonial parts are removed, and the 7th Day Sabbath was one of these laws.
Paul makes this distinction in those ever famous anti-Sabbatarian verses Collossians 2:16-17
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. " 

these verses cover the yearly (holyday), monthly (new moon), and weekly (Sabbath) services mentioned in the Old Law (1 Chron 23:31). 

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-10-09 03:38:29 +0000 UTC]

~“It should be noted that is says God rested and sanctified that day, but it doesn't show him instructing Adam and Eve to follow his example, now does it?”~

Yet God expected His people to keep it. Before there was a command recorded in the bible, before there were detailed ceremonial laws, He expected them to keep His commandments including the Sabbath. (Exodus 16:28, Exodus 16:30).

~“Jesus did not rest on the Sabbath, he performed miracles, allowed his disciples to gather food to eat.”~

Resting in Sabbath doesn’t mean ‘do nothing’, it goes beyond that. The way the Pharisees were ‘keeping’ the Sabbath was wrong, and Jesus showed them and us how to do it properly. It is lawful to do good in Sabbath (Mathew 12:12).

“And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.”~Mark 3:4

~“my point was that like the Sabbath, both Circumcision and the Passover were said to last forever, but according to the scripture they are all changed and done away with.”~

The 7th day Sabbath is not done away according to the bible (Isaiah 66:22-23).

~“actually they are referred as the same or by either name.”~

Yet, only one was written directly and literally by the finger of God, twice. (Exodus 31:18, Exodus 34:1).

~“For example, Jesus refers to the 5th commandment as being from Moses in Mark 7:10.”~

No, it actually calls it the commandment of God:

“And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:”~Mark 7:9-10

Of course it also says ‘for Moses said’ because God told Moses: ‘Thus thou shalt say’ (Exodus 20).

Moses gave Israel the Law; A Law God wrote with His own fingers, so Moses could take those stone tables to them.

~“It should be noted that the 10 Commandments were incorporated into the Law 'placed outside the Ark' at least twice when Moses wrote the whole law down, In a way the 10 Commandments were part of the written law of Moses.”~

Even today the Ten Commandments are written in different places. It is still a fact that the only Law that was placed inside (not beside) the ark were the Ten Commandments. (1 Kings 8:9).

~“It is not just the 10 commandments that pointed out sin. If we just went by the 10 commandments, homosexuality would be okay, bestiality would be okay, pre-marital sex would be okay, necromancy would be okay, and drunkedness would be okay.”~

The Ten Commandments are the basics of the moral law. They are the foundation. It doesn’t mean that nothing else exists.

Also if we only go by two commandments now as you said, and the rest of the Ten Commandments are abolished. It would be okay to do graven images and bow down to them. It would be okay to kill and steal.

But the word of God in the New Testament tells us something different about the Ten Commandments, they are still valid: 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Acts 15:20, Ephesians 5:5, Hebrews 4:4, 9-10, Eph 6:1-2, Romans 1:30-33, 1 John 3:15, James 2:11, Heb 13:4, Ephesians 4:28, 1 Corinthians 6:10, Colossians 3:9.

“For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.”~ James 2:11

~“The only division the Jews view between the two groupings is that the 10 Commandments are the Sinai Covenant, they do not view them as separate laws. It was this covenant that was abolished by Christ when he died (Hebrews 9).”~

That covenant was abolished. The the law of God wasn't (Romans 3:31).

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;” ~Hebrews 10:16

~“The Law of Christ is not the continuation of anything from the Old Law, it is a revised version. Indeed the ceremonial parts are removed, and the 7th Day Sabbath was one of these laws.”~

Yes, a revised version that still contains every single one of the Ten Commandments.
Also the 7th day Sabbath wasn’t a ceremonial law.

~“Paul makes this distinction in those ever famous anti-Sabbatarian verses Collossians 2:16-17”~

Yes, Israel had several ‘Sabbath days’, those were a shadow of ‘things to come’.

I understand why you don’t believe what I believe about the Sabbath day. I’ve heard and read all the arguments you’ve shared with me before, just like you have probably heard mine. We’ve both studied the topic, and we won’t change of opinion. As you already know I don’t tend keep a conversation for long when it doesn’t contribute anything to the persons involved. And we are just going over the same verses over and over again.

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-09 05:42:06 +0000 UTC]

Why is their a conspicuous silence about the Sabbath from Genesis 1, until Exodus 16-20?
Jesus referred to Marriage as being instituted at the beginning, but the Sabbath is recorded as beginning at Mt. Sinai.

Isaiah 66:22-23 also refers to new moons, does that mean new moon holidays aren't done away with too? another passage in Isaiah mentions gentiles practicing sacrifices and burnt offerings, alongside keeping the Sabbath (Isaiah 56:4-8). 
Isn't it odd that the Sabbath is always grouped with things of the ceremonial part of the law? 
www.bible.ca/7-2laws.htm

How come there is no direct New Testament verse that commands us to keep the Sabbath? All the others, as you pointed out are mentioned the 9 other laws, but not the Sabbath.
Hebrews 4 is not speaking of a physical Sabbath, but the future Sabbath, the Millennial reign of Christ. The 7th Day Sabbath is a shadow of this coming Sabbath, the Kingdom of God. There is no command to keep it, as the whole of Hebrews depict the end of the Old Covenant and the better conditions of the New Covenant. Jesus, like Joshua and Moses will lead us into this rest. Jesus is also a form of Rest.
The commandment to keep the Sabbath is missing among the words of Jesus and the apostles.

To me saying that the 'Sabbath days' Paul mentions refer to only the other Sabbaths, is a poor excuse not an explanation. 

Jesus did not put an end to part of the law, he put an end to ALL the Law.
Ellen White and her cohorts tried to bring back the Sabbath and a few of the dietary laws, which were all done away with.

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-10-10 07:37:44 +0000 UTC]

~“Why is their a conspicuous silence about the Sabbath from Genesis 1, until Exodus 16-20?

If we go by that, in that same period you pointed out there is silence about honoring thy father and mother, there is silence about having sex with animals. Does this means that it wasn’t a sin to dishonor one’s parents, or having sex with animals for those first years of history.

~“…but the Sabbath is recorded as beginning at Mt. Sinai.”~

No.

As I showed you before, and you mentioned above. The Sabbath is recorded BEFORE Mount Sinai --> Exodus 16:23-30.

God even asked them how long were they going to refuse His commandments (Exodus 16:28, Exodus 18:23), even Abraham followed His commandments (Genesis 26:5).

In Mount Sinai He just told them to ‘remember’ the Sabbath (Exodus 20:8). They knew about it, but had forgotten. You can’t remember something you don’t know.

~“Isaiah 66:22-23 also refers to new moons, does that mean new moon holidays aren't done away with too?”~

“And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon (chodesh) to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”~ Isaiah 66:23

‘from one new moon to another’ just means from one month to another, similarly like the seventh day Sabbath marks the end of the week (Genesis 2:2).

In Genesis 7:11 chodesh is also translated as month. A new moon just marked for them the beginning of a month.

This bible text of Isaiah is talking about the Sabbath in the new earth (Isa 66:22).

~“another passage in Isaiah mentions gentiles practicing sacrifices and burnt offerings, alongside keeping the Sabbath (Isaiah 56:4-8).”~

That passage of Isaiah 56:4-8 mentions:

--eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant (Isa 56:4)
--the sons of the stranger…every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it (Isa 56:6)
--their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar (Isa 56:7)
--The Lord gathering others beside those that are gathered unto him(Isa 56:8)

Read the passage. It just says that God will accept ‘strangers’, people that are not from Israel. The Lord will accept the offerings of strangers that ‘choose the things that please’ Him, and don’t pollute His Sabbath.

~“Isn't it odd that the Sabbath is always grouped with things of the ceremonial part of the law?”~

Not always, but if that were to be the case would that automatically make it part of the ceremonial law?

There were animal sacrifices every day of the week (Exodus 29:38-41, Numbers 28:1-8), does that mean the days of the week are also part of the ceremonial law?

In Deuteronomy 22 ceremonial, temporal, and eternal laws are grouped and mixed together. It mentions the sin of adultery; does that mean adultery was part of a ceremonial law?

If they stole they had to offer a guilt offering (Leviticus 6:2-7). Does that make ‘thou shalt not steal’ (Exodus 20:15) is part of the ceremonial law, therefore done away with, giving us free license to steal?

~“How come there is no direct New Testament verse that commands us to keep the Sabbath? All the others, as you pointed out are mentioned the 9 other laws, but not the Sabbath. Hebrews 4 is not speaking of a physical Sabbath, but the future Sabbath, the Millennial reign of Christ.”~

Hebrews 4:1-11, tells us how God limits a day of rest so we can cease from our work, just as He did.

Hebrew 4:3 gives us a sense of ‘present time’ with: we “do enter into rest”.

The word in Hebrews 4:9 sabbatismos literally means ‘Sabbath observance/keeping of the Sabbath’. So if we translate it literally it would say: “There remaineth therefore a [keeping of the sabbath] to the people of God!”.

There is nothing futuristic or millennial about that.

~“The commandment to keep the Sabbath is missing among the words of Jesus and the apostles.”~

In Mark 19:18 when Jesus repeated the commandments to someone who asked him what he should do to enter heaven Jesus didn’t mentioned five of the Ten Commandments. That doesn’t make them invalid, unless it is right for us to worship other gods, and have idols. 

For the ‘end-time’ tribulations Jesus told us: “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” ~Mathew 24:20

Why would a Sabbath day matter in our days if it’s abolished?

~“To me saying that the 'Sabbath days' Paul mentions refer to only the other Sabbaths, is a poor excuse not an explanation.” 

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-10 13:02:55 +0000 UTC]

Just because those are their, doesn't mean the Sabbath was. There were the Noachide laws .

Just because the Bible says laws and commandments doesn't automatically mean it's referring to the Decalogue.

Let me clarify.
The Sabbath is always grouped with the other Sabbaths, the ceremonial laws, it is never gathered with the moral laws repeated in the New Testament.
Now one in the Bible demonstrated a belief in a division of the 10 Commandments.

I may have brought this up before, but in Exodus 12 the first Day was given as Sabbath before the Seventh Day Sabbath was given to the people.

'Sabbaton' the Greek plural for Sabbath, was used in  also used inMatthew 12:1-12, to refer to the weekly Sabbath.

Sabbaton is used most of the time refer to the singular Sabbath day. It occurs 68 times in scripture, and has also been found to refer to a day of a week also. 
biblehub.com/greek/4521.htm

Are we to look back or forward?
The Sabbath was given to look at God as Creator, the First Day was given to look at God as Savior.  
Cross reference this verse to Hebrews 4:4, there the author of Hebrews shows how the Sabbath has become the shadow of things to come.
The 7th Day Sabbath, has always been a shadow

The Sabbath is the shadow of the coming rest, in the Kingdom of God.
The writer compared our entering into this rest as Joshua entering into Canaan in Chapter 3.
The Seventh Day Sabbath is not God's rest. We have not entered into that rest yet. 
The Sabbath is the shadow of Heaven, where we will work no more, and rest forever in Christ.
It's talking about a perpetual Sabbath day, not a weekly sequence of observances.
Joshua was the forerunner into Palestine, Jesus was the forerunner into Paradise.
www.bible.ca/7-sabbath-hebrews…


We're under a new law, that resembles the old law in some places, but stuff removed in others.

2 Corinthians 3:7,11
 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away....For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The key Greek word used here is Katargeo, or  “to render inoperative', or 'disannul'
biblehub.com/greek/katargoumen…
biblehub.com/greek/katargoumen…

The 10 Commandments were done away with like the rest of the Law and OLD COVENANT, and a new law, written on our hearts, was put in place.
 
With all the changes that have been done to the calender in the past 2000 year, how do we know we are even keeping the real Sabbath?

In truth, not even the Sabbatarians are really keeping the Sabbath, because you're not supposed to work, start a fire, gather fuel for fire, purchase anything, kill Sabbath breakers, aaaand sacrifice animals.

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-10-13 22:09:47 +0000 UTC]

~“Just because those are their, doesn't mean the Sabbath was.”~

I’m sorry, I didn’t understand what you were trying to say here.

~“There were the Noachide laws.”~

The Noahide laws; found in the Talmud. That is not inspired scripture (2 Timothy 3:16).

~“Just because the Bible says laws and commandments doesn't automatically mean it's referring to the Decalogue.”~

Well, He was referring to the Sabbath as part of His commandments. The Seventh day Sabbath is part of the Decalogue.

“Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the Sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day.” ~Exodus 16:26-30

But yes, the Ten Commandments did exist before Mount Sinai, so yes Abraham did indeed kept them (Genesis 26:5):

First commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me (Exodus 20:2-3).

---Adam and Eve chose the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) before God, and disobeyed Him.
---“Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:” ~ Genesis 35:2
---“Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.” ~Exodus 18:11

Second Commandment: You shall not make idols (Exodus 20:4-6).

---“Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:”~Genesis 35:2
---“And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand: This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.” ~ Job 31:27-28

Third commandment:You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain (Exodus 20:7).

---Satan took the Lord’s name in vain, when he accused God of not telling Adam and Eve that they would be like gods, knowing good and evil when they ate the fruit (Genesis 3:5).

Satan’s rebellion was something he probably planned for some time; his vanity wasn’t something that appeared suddenly. He kept the act of adoration and obedience while he created a false image of God and a false image of himself. He probably had to lie and bear false testimony against God in a convincing and manipulative way so he could successfully fool a third part (Romans 6:23) of the angels.

---“…It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts…”~ Job 1:5

Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11)

---“And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”~ Genesis 2:3
---“Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.”~ Exodus 16:26

The Fifth Commandment: Honor your father and your mother.(Exodus 20:12)

---Adam and Eve dishonored their only parent (Luke 3:38).
---Satan didn’t honor God (Ephesians 4:6)
---“And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”~ Genesis 9:24-25

The Sixth commandment: You shall not murder. (Exodus 20:13)

---When Satan temped Adam and Eve he condemned us all, it was genocide. (Romans 6:23, Romans 5:12)
---“And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;”~Genesis 4:10-11
---“And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.  But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.”~Exodus 1:16-17

The Seventh commandment: You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)

---Adam and Eve committed spiritual adultery when they followed Satan instead of God (Hosea 2:16,19-20, Hosea 3:1-5, James 4:4)
---Joseph and the wife of Potiphar “There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?”~Genesis 39:8-9
---“But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.”~ Genesis 20:3
---“If mine heart have been deceived by a woman, or if I have laid wait at my neighbor’s door; Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her. For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges.”~Job 31:9-11

The eight commandment: You shall not steal. (Exodus 20:15)

---“With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what is thine with me, and take it to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them.”~ Genesis 31:32
---“Behold, the money, which we found in our sacks' mouths, we brought again unto thee out of the land of Canaan: how then should we steal out of thy lord's house silver or gold?”~ Genesis 44:8

The ninth commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Exodus 20:16)

---“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”~ John 8:44
---“But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.”~ Job 13:4

The tenth commandment: You shall not covet. (Exodus 20:17)

---Satan coveted God’s throne, glory and power. He wanted to be like the most High (Isaiah 14:12-14).
---“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”~ Genesis 3:6
---“Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness;…” ~ Exodus 18:21
---“If mine heart have been deceived by a woman, or if I have laid wait at my neighbour's door; Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her. For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges.” ~ Job 31:9-11

~“The Sabbath is always grouped with the other Sabbaths, the ceremonial laws, it is never gathered with the moral laws repeated in the New Testament.”~

No, the Sabbath is not always grouped with ceremonial laws.

“And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.”~ Luke 23:56 

They rested on the Sabbath day according to the commandment, after the new covenant had begun (Hebrews 9: 15-17, Galatians 3:15).

We cannot say that ‘Luke didn’t know the Sabbath Commandment had ended’, because Luke wrote this approximately 30 years after Jesus’ death. Luke certainly knew what he was talking about. By writing that he is informing the reader that there was no change to the Commandment.

He didn’t write: ‘according to the old commandment’, or ‘according to the abolished commandment’. He wrote: “according to the commandment.”

~“I may have brought this up before, but in Exodus 12 the first Day was given as Sabbath before the Seventh Day Sabbath was given to the people.”~

Read Exodus 12 again. Here’s a summary:
--This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
--In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb
--Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year:
--For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt
--And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord
--Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses
--And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you
--And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread
--For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel
--It is the sacrifice of the Lord's Passover
--And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the Lord did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.

Exodus 12 doesn’t show us God giving the people the first day as a Sabbath. Exodus 12 show us when God gave them the Feast of Passover (Pesach).

~“'Sabbaton' the Greek plural for Sabbath, was used in  also used in Matthew 12:1-12, to refer to the weekly Sabbath…..Sabbaton is used most of the time refer to the singular Sabbath day. It occurs 68 times in scripture, and has also been found to refer to a day of a week also.”~

I know this. What’s your point?

~“Are we to look back or forward?”~

We are to look both ways.

<sub>~“The Sabbath was given to look at God as Creator, the First Day was given to look at God as Savior.”~

The first day was given? When? Where? 

~“Cross reference this verse to Hebrews 4:4, there the author of Hebrews shows how the Sabbath has become the shadow of things to come.”~

Read Hebrews 4. There are three rests mentioned in this verse.

1)  A rest found in Jesus Christ, that we receive when we invite him “Today”. (Matthew 11:28)
2)  A Rest we long to enter into one day when the Lord Jesus comes to take us home, the heavens above, the New Jerusalem (John 14:2-3).
3) The rest of the Seventh day Sabbath. (I will focus on this one).

Sabbath rest points to God’s creation rest, when God rested ‘the seventh day from all his works.’ (Heb 4:4). That is the original and physical aspect of the seventh day Sabbath. 

A cessation from work in order to commemorate the completion and perfection of God’s creation.

The physical rest of the Sabbath remains, but in the light of the Christ event, ceasing from one’s labor on the Sabbath (Heb 4:10) signifies both a present experience of redemption (Heb 4:3) and a hope of
future fellowship with God (Heb 4:11).

--“For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.” ~ Heb 4:4 

We are taken back to creation week. The Seventh day Sabbath.

--“There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”~ Hebrews 4:9 -10

As I already mentioned sabbatismos literally means ‘Sabbath observance/keeping of the Sabbath'. As in the Seventh day Sabbath keeping. We are to enter into a rest, the rest of Sabbath-Keeping (sabbatismos). We have to cease our works ‘as God did from His’.

We know that when we come to Jesus we find rest from sin and the guilt of sin.
Does God also rest from sin and from the guilt of sin? Of course not!
Does God need to be given the rest of Heaven as we do? Also no

By ceasing from our works ‘as God did from His’, we are to enter into the rest of Sabbath-Keeping (sabbatismos).

--“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” ~Hebrews 4:11

That rest is the same rest mentioned in Hebrews 4:9-10. The rest of the seventh day Sabbath.
It also tells us that the Israelites were disobedient (Ezekiel 20:21) of this same rest.

~”The 7th Day Sabbath, has always been a shadow
The Sabbath is the shadow of the coming rest, in the Kingdom of God….The Sabbath is the shadow of Heaven, where we will work no more, and rest forever in Christ.
It's talking about a perpetual Sabbath day, not a weekly sequence of observances.
Joshua was the forerunner into Palestine, Jesus was the forerunner into Paradise.”~

The Seventh day Sabbath existed before sin (Genesis 2:2-3), therefore it cannot be a Shadow. When God told Israel to remember it (Exodus 20:8) it pointed backwards to a sinless world, when God created the earth and rested on the Seventh day (Exodus 20:11, Hebrews 4:4).

There was work in Eden (Genesis 2:15, Genesis 2:19):

“And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress (abad: work) it and to keep (shamar: preserve) it.”~ Genesis 2:15

If we don’t work we don’t deserve to eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10). There was work before sin, so they also needed to follow God’s actions of resting (Genesis 2:2-3).

God will bring all that back, everything will be restored, everything will be good and sinless once again (Genesis 1:31, Revelation 21:1; 21:4). So telling me that there is not gonna be anymore work. Telling me that that is the meaning of every Sabbath related verse in the bible doesn’t make sense.

There was work in Eden, before sin, why would there be no work when we return to a sinless state?

~“2 Corinthians 3:7,11
 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away....For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”~

The ministration of death: Israel was in sin so the law of God was going to bring them death.

“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” ~ Romans 7:9

Is it that the law brought sin? No, the law revealed sin to him (Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20), and sin brings death (Romans 6:23). Without the law, we would not have known of sin (Romans 7:7), and would have died in ignorance.

Read those texts carefully (2 Corinthians 3:7-11). Two things are referred to as ‘glorious’:  The law and Moses’ face. What glory was to be ‘done away’?

It’s important to note that the word glory at the end of verse 7 is in italics and that means that is an added word that is not present in the original Greek manuscript.

So if we read that verse as it was originally written it would say: “…the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which was to be done away”.

It is true that Moses’ face was shining (Exodus 34:32-35), it is also true that His face stopped shining. He put a vail on his face, and the glory that shone on his face was done away. It was the glory of Moses that was ‘done away’. Paul further proves this in the following verse:

“And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:”~2 Corinthians 3:13

‘The children of Israel could not stedfastly’ look something, and that something was abolished/done away. If we read what happened that day in Exodus 34, we see that Israel did behold the tablets of stone in Moses’ hands. So what they could not “stedfastly behold?” The face of Moses (Exodus 34:35).

~“The 10 Commandments were done away with like the rest of the Law and OLD COVENANT, and a new law, written on our hearts, was put in place.”~

“And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.”~ Luke 16:17

The Law is indeed written in our hearts, therefore it cannot be ‘done away’. That doesn’t make sense, either there is a law or there is not. The word of God clearly shows us that the Ten Commandments are not ‘done away’:

The Ten Commandments after Jesus’ death:

First commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)

---“But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:”~ Acts 24:14
---“…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;”~1 Thessalonians 1:9

Second Commandment: You shall not make idols. (Exodus 20:4-6)

---“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?...”~2 Corinthians 6:16
---“…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;”~1 Thessalonians 1:9
---“But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols...” ~ Acts 15:20
---“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters…”~ 1 Corinthians 6:9

Third commandment:You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. (Exodus 20:7)

---“But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.”~ Colossians 3:8

Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:8-11)

---“For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.” ~ Hebrews 4:4
---“But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”~ Matthew 24:20

The Fifth Commandment: Honor your father and your mother.(Exodus 20:12)

---“Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;”~Ephesians 6:1-2

The Sixth commandment: You shall not murder. (Exodus 20:13)

---“ … Thou shalt not kill….”~ Romans 13:9

The Seventh commandment: You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)

---“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery...”~ Romans 13:9
---“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers…”~1 Corinthians 6:9
---“So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress…”~ Romans 7:3

The eight commandment: You shall not steal. (Exodus 20:15)

---“…Thou shalt not steal…”~ Romans 13:9
---“Nor thieves,…shall inherit the kingdom of God.”~1 Corinthians 6:10

The ninth commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Exodus 20:16)

---“…Thou shalt not bear false witness...”~ Romans 13:9
---“Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.”~ Ephesians 4:25

The tenth commandment: You shall not covet. (Exodus 20:17)

---“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”~ Romans 7:7
---“…Thou shalt not covet...” ~ Rom 13:9

~“With all the changes that have been done to the calender in the past 2000 year, how do we know we are even keeping the real Sabbath?”~

These changes altered dates, not days. The week cycle wasn’t altered.

~“In truth, not even the Sabbatarians are really keeping the Sabbath, because you're not supposed to work, start a fire, gather fuel for fire, purchase anything, kill Sabbath breakers, aaaand sacrifice animals.”~

The sacrifices are not part of the Sabbath. Sacrifices were added to every day of the week. (Exodus 29:38-42, Number 28). Those were daily sacrifices.

Important characteristics of these sacrifices:
---‘Two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering’. (numbers 28:3)
--- ‘And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil’.(Numbers 28:5) (This is what some call a bread offering, it is a Minchach/meat offering/bloodless sacrifice)
---‘It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet smell, a sacrifice made by fire to the LORD’.

Christ as our ‘daily’ offering:
---Jesus ‘offered himself without spot to God’(Hebrews 9:14)
---Jesus is our bread of life (John 6:48)
---Jesus was our sacrifice to God ‘for a sweetsmelling savour’ (Ephesians 5:2).

As you can see the incorporated sacrifices for every day were ‘done away’ by Jesus.

Regarding the death penalty. That was not just for the Sabbath, there was a death penalty for every commandment:

--You shall have no other gods before Me. (Exodus 22:20, Deuteronomy 18:20)
--You shall not make idols. (Exodus 22:20, Leviticus 20:1-5)
--You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
--Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 31:14-15)
--Honor your father and your mother. (Exodus 21:15, 17, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
--You shall not murder. (Exodus 21:12, Numbers 35:16-31)
--You shall not commit adultery. (Leviticus 20:10)
--You shall not steal. (Exodus 21:16)
--You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Deuteronomy 19:15-21)
--You shall not covet. (leads to the sins mentioned above)

Now I ask you:
Do you believe that having other gods is a sin?
Do we punish with death those who have other gods?

Jesus paid the price of death in the cross. But we need to accept His payment or we need to pay it ourselves. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), we all have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). If we don’t want to pay the debt we have to accept the payment Christ did for all of us.

We cannot punish anyone with death (John 8:7, Mat. 5:38-39). God will do that when the time comes (Romans 2:16, Proverbs 10:25).

Those who say they love God but don’t keep His commandments are liars (1 John 2:4, James 2:10–12), and we know that liars (those that don’t repent) won’t go to heaven (Revelation 21:8).

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” ~ Revelation 14:12 

And yes, we don’t work, we don’t gather fuel for fire, nor do we start fires in our dwellings, and we don’t purchase anything in Sabbath day (sundown of Friday to sundown of Saturday).</sub>

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-14 06:26:19 +0000 UTC]

>just because the other laws are there, doesn't mean the Sabbath is. does that clarify, better?

>If the Sabbath existed before the Law/Covenant was given, then why did the Israelites seem clueless on how to keep it, and about its existence?
God refers to the coming Christ in Genesis 3:15, but it doesn't happen for another 4000 years. Genesis 2:24 mentions a husband leaving his parents, and cleaving to his wife. Adam didn't have a mother and father to leave! Remember, Moses wrote Genesis, it did not exist until probably some 430 years after Abraham lived, during the time the Decalogue was given.
To me it is still clear scripturally that the Sabbath was an exclusive deal for the Children of Israel, as God proclaimed after giving the Decalogue the first time.

Exodus 30:12-17
12 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

(is it weird to say it's easier to write Decalogue than it is to write 10 Commandments?)

Hebrews 4 refers to all those rests as one rest not several. We are now in Christs' spiritual rest looking forward to God's spiritual rest.


>Luke was a Jew! the gospels were all written several decades afterwards! That is the most ridiculous argument for Sabbatarianism I ever heard!
This is a historical event being recorded here. The women didn't know the purpose of Jesus' death, which is obvious by their intended mission.
Luke is not the clueless one here, it is the ones who went to prepare Jesus' grave.
You notice there is no account of the Christians keeping the Sabbath again afterwards, only when Paul witnessed to the Jews 84 times.
Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, reappeared several times after that on a Sunday, and ascended into Heaven on Sunday. The Pentacost, was on a Sunday based on historical calculations (the Pentacost was part of the Law Lev. 23:15-16).

>I happened to be reading Exodus 34:1-28, the second time God gave Moses the Decalogue, It appears there were more than just the 10 Commandments written down on the two tables. God wrote the first ten over, but Moses wrote what God spoke to him onto the tablets, afterwards (v. 1, 4, 27-28). Now these are the tablets that are placed in the Ark of the Covenant, not the first set. Could this mean, more than just the 10 commandments were put in the ark?

> The use of Sabbaton disproves any idea that the Sabbath Days, in Col. 6:17 refers to the other Sabbath rests. The Greek translation of the Old Testament, always called the other Sabbaths 'Sabbata Sabbaton'.
Even the late SDA scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi agreed that this verse meant the seventh day Sabbath.
Now, if Paul meant this to be the weekly Sabbath, then doesn't that make the ones who said it as not abolished in the 1850's, bald faced liars?

The first day was given when Jesus, rose from the tomb, when Jesus reappeared to his disciples, In fact Matthew 28:1 and Acts 20:7, actually calls these first day events 'mia ton Sabbaton' or the 'first day of the week'. It is confirmed by first and second century writers, that Christians always kept the first day to honor Christ, very few, if any kept the Sabbath during this time.
the Sabbath is the day of completion. The first/eighth day is the day of new creation/new beginning. 


>The punishment of lawbreakers under the new law belongs to God, not us. The New Testament never instructs us to kill or cast away, but pray for those wayward souls. God's judgement is better than ours anyday of the week.
Galatians 3:21-27
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

>If you want to get technical, going to church for Sabbath service, you are starting a fire. Remember? The car cylinders sparks, the fuel ignites when the ignition is turned...
It's crazy to think about, I know, but still...
 

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-10-15 06:30:41 +0000 UTC]

>just because the other laws are there, doesn't mean the Sabbath is. does that clarify, better?

Yes, thank you. But I already explained this (Genesis 2:3, Exodus 16:26). You just don’t agree.

>If the Sabbath existed before the Law/Covenant was given, then why did the Israelites seem clueless on how to keep it, and about its existence?
God refers to the coming Christ in Genesis 3:15, but it doesn't happen for another 4000 years. Genesis 2:24 mentions a husband leaving his parents, and cleaving to his wife. Adam didn't have a mother and father to leave! Remember, Moses wrote Genesis, it did not exist until probably some 430 years after Abraham lived, during the time the Decalogue was given.
To me it is still clear scripturally that the Sabbath was an exclusive deal for the Children of Israel, as God proclaimed after giving the Decalogue the first time.

There is no if. The Sabbath did exist already. How many times I’ll have to show you this verse: Exodus 16:26. That happened before Mount Sinai, before the Law was properly written in stone tables. God got angry with them because they were not keeping His commandments, and because they were not keeping His Sabbath. That happened before He properly wrote for them the Ten Commandments in stone tables in Mount Sinai.

Israel was enslaved in Egypt for more than 400 years (Exodus 12:40-41), of course they had forgotten! That’s why God told them to ‘Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.’ (Exodus 20:8)

As I showed you, Adam is called the son of God. In his case that’s literal:

“Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” ~ Luke 3:38

God didn’t create the Sabbath just for Israel. The Scripture is clear with that (Mark 2:27). It is not called the Sabbath of the Jews, nor the Sabbath of Israel. It is called the Lord’s day (Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13, Mark 2:28).

~“(is it weird to say it's easier to write Decalogue than it is to write 10 Commandments?)”~

Lol yea… shorter word. If you want we can write Decalogue from now on…

~”Hebrews 4 refers to all those rests as one rest not several. We are now in Christs' spiritual rest looking forward to God's spiritual rest.”~

So…you think God needs spiritual rest...

>Luke was a Jew! the gospels were all written several decades afterwards! That is the most ridiculous argument for Sabbatarianism I ever heard!
This is a historical event being recorded here. The women didn't know the purpose of Jesus' death, which is obvious by their intended mission.
Luke is not the clueless one here, it is the ones who went to prepare Jesus' grave.

The bible is very clear, and it gives us the tools to understand those things that we don’t understand at first glance. Perhaps the women didn’t understand, but Luke did understand what he was writing about. And we know that they don’t leave us clueless in important things.

For example, when they or others didn’t understand the meaning of something correctly they wrote it to let us know that what they understood wasn’t the real meaning. So if the women didn’t understand, or none of them understood that Jesus made a change of day they would have written about it. God doesn’t do things half way. Surely a change of holy day is important, and they would have written about this change, like they did with other changes (Matthew 5:38-49). 

When they didn’t understand something they didn’t realize it right away. But by the time they wrote the bible books they already understood the meaning and they wrote it in a way that we wouldn’t make their same mistakes of not understanding: Mark 8:14-18, Luke 2:48-50, John 11:11-14:

“For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.  And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.” ~Luke 18:32

“Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.” ~ John 12:15-16

~“You notice there is no account of the Christians keeping the Sabbath again afterwards, only when Paul witnessed to the Jews 84 times.”~

Only to the Jews? Then you consider gentiles and Greeks Jews? Because they witnessed to Gentiles and Greeks on Sabbath.

“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.” ~ Acts 13:42-44

“And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.” ~ Acts 16:13

“And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.”~ Acts 18:4

~“Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, reappeared several times after that on a Sunday, and ascended into Heaven on Sunday. The Pentacost, was on a Sunday based on historical calculations (the Pentacost was part of the Law Lev. 23:15-16).”~

Please do explain how this supports a change of day.

>I happened to be reading Exodus 34:1-28, the second time God gave Moses the Decalogue, It appears there were more than just the 10 Commandments written down on the two tables. God wrote the first ten over, but Moses wrote what God spoke to him onto the tablets, afterwards (v. 1, 4, 27-28). Now these are the tablets that are placed in the Ark of the Covenant, not the first set. Could this mean, more than just the 10 commandments were put in the ark?

No, just the Ten commandments.

Let’s see, here are key sentences:
--- And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
--- And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
--- And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
--- And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
--- And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

God wrote the original Ten Commandments again, while Moses wrote other instructions. The Tables that were placed in the ark only have the original ten commandments. 

Deuteronomy 10 Confirms this:

“At that time the Lord said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.” ~Deuteronomy 10: 1-2

> The use of Sabbaton disproves any idea that the Sabbath Days, in Col. 6:17 refers to the other Sabbath rests. The Greek translation of the Old Testament, always called the other Sabbaths 'Sabbata Sabbaton'.
Even the late SDA scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi agreed that this verse meant the seventh day Sabbath.
Now, if Paul meant this to be the weekly Sabbath, then doesn't that make the ones who said it as not abolished in the 1850's, bald faced liars?

I’m gonna assume you are referring to Colossians 2:16, but if you’re not please tell me.

Shabbat Shabbaton just means “A Sabbath of rest (complete rest)”. It can apply to the Seventh day Sabbath and to the other Sabbaths also. And no, the other Sabbaths are not always called like that.

They can be called:
--Shabbat Shabbathon: Leviticus 23:32
--Shabbat: Leviticus 23:15
--Shabbathon: Leviticus 23:39

The first day was given when Jesus, rose from the tomb, when Jesus reappeared to his disciples, In fact Matthew 28:1 and Acts 20:7, actually calls these first day events 'mia ton Sabbaton' or the 'first day of the week'. It is confirmed by first and second century writers, that Christians always kept the first day to honor Christ, very few, if any kept the Sabbath during this time. the Sabbath is the day of completion. The first/eighth day is the day of new creation/new beginning. 

I’m going to use your logic regarding the seventh day before Sinai here: There is no commandment telling us to take the first day as the Sabbath of the Lord.

Find me a verse that says: ‘I command you to keep the first day instead of the seventh day of the week holy from now on’ and that will be enough for me.

Also, any day of the week could be called Sabbath (remember the feasts).

Also, remember that in those times their calendar or the way they measured time wasn’t by Sunday, Monday, Tuesday….etc.

They measured time by using the seventh day Sabbath as a guide:

--Sunday: one day of the Sabbath or the first (day) with reference to the Sabbath.
--Monday: two days of the Sabbath
--Tuesday: three days of the Sabbath

Sunday = the first (day) with reference to the Sabbath = Mia Sabbaton = This is translated as first day of the week every single time (Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, Mark 16:9, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, John 20:19, Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2).

It is conformed? I’ve read the contrary:

--"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." ~Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19.

--Egypt (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).

--Early Christians-C 3rd:
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

--Philo:
"But after the whole world had been completed according to the perfect nature of the number six, the Father hallowed the day following, the seventh, praising it and calling it holy. For that day is the festival, not of one city or one country, but of all the earth; a day which alone it is right to call the day of festival for all people, and the birth-day of the world.

---Josephus:
"That there is no city either of Greeks or barbarians, or any other nation, where the religion of the Sabbath is not known."

“Samaritans, though they were not Jews, yet did they, from ancient times, observe the Sabbath day.”

“This seventh day of creation was so very famous, it seems, in old time among the heathen world, that even the very seventh day of the month did sometimes derive an honor to itself therefrom.”

--Grotius:
"That the memory of the creation being performed in seven days, was preserved not only among the Greeks and the Italians, but among the Celts and Indians, all of whom divided their time into weeks."

>The punishment of lawbreakers under the new law belongs to God, not us. The New Testament never instructs us to kill or cast away, but pray for those wayward souls. God's judgement is better than ours anyday of the week.

Exactly! The difference is that you believe that there is a new law and I believe the law (the moral basic code) hasn’t changed.

I already showed you that the Ten Commandments were kept years after Jesus’ death.

>If you want to get technical, going to church for Sabbath service, you are starting a fire. Remember? The car cylinders sparks, the fuel ignites when the ignition is turned...
It's crazy to think about, I know, but still...

Oh! Trust me I do know how the engine of a car works. But Yea, lets get technical:

“Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations (moshab: dwelling place) upon the sabbath day.” ~ Exodus 35:3

--Israel didn’t have cars, so they kindled fire for cooking.
--The Car is not my dwelling place (moshab).
--The garage is not my dwelling place. It’s not even considered living area, and it’s not even listed in the sq footage of a house by the real states.
--Israel made burnt offerings every day, including the seventh day Sabbath.

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-15 16:29:13 +0000 UTC]

> The thing is though, Exodus 16:26 is not proof of it existing before hand Genesis 2:3.
Why are there no verses between these to events recording Sabbath keeping? um because, the Sabbath wasn't there?
It is a fact that the Sabbath, along with all the other Jewish holy days and festivals, were threatened to come to an end (Hosea 2:11).
The Scripture points out that the Israelites did not start keeping the Sabbath until the 38th day of their journey.
(Chronological journey from Egypt to Sinai) 
www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-…
This list points out something interesting. Both the Red Sea Crossing, and the Day of Pentacost were on the first day of the week, or Sunday.

hmm, I've just been reading an article that suggested there was historical base for the Jews having some knowledge of a Sabbath rest, but it did not come from God, it came from their masters the Egyptians.
There were forms of Sabbath rests kept by the Egyptians and Assyrians in the time the Books of Moses were written.
Even Babylon kept a 6 day work/7th day rest system, but of course, their 'Sabbaths' were perverted by pagan means.
The Assyrians and the Egyptians used the Lunar Cycle, as opposed to the Solic Cycle the Romans used and we used today.
Scripture points to the Israelites using a Lunar cycle for their monthly structure, with each new moon being the beginning of a new month. 
God had designed the sun, moon and stars to determine the time.
Every beginning of the month(new moon) was a Sabbath day(Lev. 23:24)
It is also interesting to point out that MT. Sinai was named after a Babylonian moon god, Sin. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(myt… .
There was some bit about the linguistics in Genesis 2:3 is different from Exodus 16 and other records of the Sabbath, but I have to do more research on it.

It also mentioned that writings containing a Genesis Sabbath doctrine, were influenced by hellenized Rabbis and apocryphal writings, in other words, from Jewish fables. They obtained this information from Dr. Bacchiochi's own book, The Sabbath in the New Testament, Answers to Questions.
The Jews who simply studied and researched the Bible uninfluenced by outward Greek thought, came to the conclusion that the Sabbath belong solely to the Jews, and that neither Jew or Gentile could keep it unless they were circumcised.
Other studies such as those done by the Anglican chaplain, Peter Heylin in the 1600's(History of the Sabbath,1636) also pointed to the Sabbath beginning in Exodus, and not Genesis.

>The gentiles who requested Paul to return on the Sabbath were probably proselytes, gentile converts to Judaism. They were most likely circumcised according to the Law, which is why they kept the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was a symbol to the Jews of God saving them out of Egypt, in similarity, the first day symbolizes Jesus saving us out of this world.
Some early churches may have kept both to symbolize both happenings, while others in error of scripture, continued to keep the Sabbath.
The truth remains the Sabbath was a not a requirement of the New Covenant. www.ukapologetics.net/early.ht…
The changing of Sunday to a Sabbath by Constantine was because of an interpretation of scripture (six days rest, 7th day rest)
As the Jews held the Sabbath day in memorial for their salvation from physical Egypt, the Christians look to the Lord's Day in memorial for their salvation from spiritual Egypt. 
The day was never 'the mark of the beast' as Ellen White proclaimed.
The Bible never says that.
Here is an article written by a former Adventist, and his Biblical and historical research into the First Day worship.
www.ukapologetics.net/sabbath.…

>(Agh all these numbers, they are hard to keep straight sometimes)
Sabbaton in Col 2:17, could not refer to anything but 7th Day Sabbath, as it is not exclusive as Sabbatarians point it out to be.  How can it?

>
Ummm, have you read this verse?
Leviticus 23:39
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Several other passages call this day, the eighth day (i.e. Numbers 29:35).
In concordance, many church fathers called Sunday, the eighth day.

  
>All the moral laws cannot be contained in the Decalogue, but they can be contained in the two greatest laws mentioned by Jesus. 
The Sabbath is not in any nature a moral law.


 

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Nilopher In reply to Doctor-Why-Designs [2014-10-20 07:06:03 +0000 UTC]

~> The thing is though, Exodus 16:26 is not proof of it existing before hand Genesis 2:3.
Why are there no verses between these to events recording Sabbath keeping? um because, the Sabbath wasn't there?
It is a fact that the Sabbath, along with all the other Jewish holy days and festivals, were threatened to come to an end (Hosea 2:11).
The Scripture points out that the Israelites did not start keeping the Sabbath until the 38th day of their journey.
This list points out something interesting. Both the Red Sea Crossing, and the Day of Pentacost were on the first day of the week, or Sunday.~

Exodus 16:26 is clear proof that the Sabbath wasn’t first given at Sinai, for how can God expect them to keep something they didn’t know about. How can He be angry with them for forgetting something they didn’t know about? 

Also, the argument of silence is invalid. As I told you before if it were for that honoring thy father and mother and having sex with animals among other things were only a sin after Sinai and not before. 

Neither the Sabbath nor the Ten Commandments were added because our transgressions (Galatians 3:19). They already existed before there was sin, so no, it isn’t a fact that the Sabbath ‘was threatened to come to an end’. Especially if we’re going to keep it in the new earth (Isa 66:23).

God has been giving His law since ancient times: 

“Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,” ~1 Chronicles 16:15-17

The Ten Commandments Israel were commanded to keep were the same Jacob, Isaac and Abraham kept.

 “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge (mishmereth), my commandments (mitsvah), my statutes (chuqqah), and my laws (torah)”. ~ Genesis 26:5

“Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge (mishmereth), and his statutes (chuqqah), and his judgments (mishpat), and his commandments (mitsvah), alway.” ~ Deuteronomy 11:1

God establishes His law in every covenant. He doesn’t change His law every time He makes a covenant. The Ten Commandments are a constant factor because they are a reflection of His character. And God doesn’t change (Malachi 3:6): 

---The law of God is:

eternal (psalms 111:7-8, luke 16:17), good (romans 7:12, 16, 1 timothy 1:8), spiritual (romans 7:14), just (romans 7:12), righteous (romans 9:31, psalms 119:172), pure (psalms 19:7-8), perfect (james 1:25, psalms 19:7), love (romans 13:8-10, galatians 5:14), light (Proverbs 6:23), great (hosea 8:12), truth (psalms 119:142, 151), faithful (psalms 119:86), true (nehemiah 9:13), peace (psalms 119:165), honourable (isaiah 42:21), wonderful (psalms 119:18), the way (psalms 119:30-32), sure (psalms 19:7, 111:7), wise (psalms 119:98, psalms 19:7), enlightenment (psalms 19:8), blessed (revelation 22:14, exodus 20:11), happiness (proverbs 29:18), merciful (matthew 23:23, nehemiah 1:5), delight (psalms 1:2), liberty (james 1:25, psalms 119:45), knowledge (romans 3:20), hope (psalms 119:43), our meditation (psalms 1:2), unchanging (matthew 5:18, psalms 111:7-8),  and holy (romans 7:12).

---God’s character is:

eternal (Romans 16:26, Deuteronomy 33:27), good (Nahum 1:7, Luke 18:19), spiritual (John 4:24), just (Isaiah 45:21, Romans 3:26), righteous (Psalms 145:17, Jeremiah 23:6), pure (1 John 3:3, Job 4:17), perfect (Matthew 5:48), love (1 John 4:8, 1 john 4:16), light (1 john 1:5), great (psalms 48:1), truth (deuteronomy 32:4, john 14:6), faithful (1 corinthians 1:9, 2 thessalonians 3:3), true (john 3:33, 1 john 5:20), peace (romans 15:33, hebrews 13:20), honourable (isaiah 58:13), wonderful (isaiah 9:6), the way (john 14:6), sure (2 timothy 2:19), wise (daniel 2:20, job 36:5, jude 1:25), enlightenment (psalms 18:28), blessed (1 timothy 1:11, psalms 28:6), happiness (psalms 146:5), merciful (2 corinthians 1:3, exodus 34:6), delight (psalms 37:4), liberty (2 Corinthians 3:17), knowledge (isaiah 11:2), hope (psalms 71:5, Romans 15:13), our meditation (psalms 63:6) unchanging (malachi 3:6, hebrews 13:8) and holy (1 peter 1:15, psalms 99:9)

Even in this new covenant He made with us He established His law:

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;” ~ Hebrews 10:16

~hmm, I've just been reading an article that suggested there was historical base for the Jews having some knowledge of a Sabbath rest, but it did not come from God, it came from their masters the Egyptians.
There were forms of Sabbath rests kept by the Egyptians and Assyrians in the time the Books of Moses were written.
Even Babylon kept a 6 day work/7th day rest system, but of course, their 'Sabbaths' were perverted by pagan means.~

That is more extraordinary, because it just proves how wonderful our God is. Who established the week? God. With what? The Sabbath.
--A year is the earth revolving around the sun one time.
--A month is the moon revolving around the earth
--A day is the rotating on its axis
--A week: God established it (Genesis 2: 2-3)

The fact that everyone recognizes the week to be of seven days and in the majority of the principal languages the last, or seventh, day of the week is designated as "Sabbath." just proves that the word of God is powerful and remains forever.

This just only proves that the Sabbath existed before Israel came into the picture. 

~ It also mentioned that writings containing a Genesis Sabbath doctrine, were influenced by hellenized Rabbis and apocryphal writings, in other words, from Jewish fables. They obtained this information from Dr. Bacchiochi's own book, The Sabbath in the New Testament, Answers to Questions.
The Jews who simply studied and researched the Bible uninfluenced by outward Greek thought, came to the conclusion that the Sabbath belong solely to the Jews, and that neither Jew or Gentile could keep it unless they were circumcised.
Other studies such as those done by the Anglican chaplain, Peter Heylin in the 1600's(History of the Sabbath,1636) also pointed to the Sabbath beginning in Exodus, and not Genesis.<~/sub>

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." ~"Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer.

"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," ~Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." ~"Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

PERSIA-A.D.335-375:
"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday."~ O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84. 

Constantine created the earliest Sunday law known to history in AD 321. Venerating the day of the sun:

"On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost--" ~The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.

~>The gentiles who requested Paul to return on the Sabbath were probably proselytes, gentile converts to Judaism. They were most likely circumcised according to the Law, which is why they kept the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a symbol to the Jews of God saving them out of Egypt, in similarity, the first day symbolizes Jesus saving us out of this world.
Some early churches may have kept both to symbolize both happenings, while others in error of scripture, continued to keep the Sabbath.
The truth remains the Sabbath was a not a requirement of the New Covenant. The changing of Sunday to a Sabbath by Constantine was because of an interpretation of scripture (six days rest, 7th day rest)
As the Jews held the Sabbath day in memorial for their salvation from physical Egypt, the Christians look to the Lord's Day in memorial for their salvation from spiritual Egypt. 
The day was never 'the mark of the beast' as Ellen White proclaimed.
The Bible never says that.
Here is an article written by a former Adventist, and his Biblical and historical research into the First Day worship.~

Constantine didn’t change the day because of an interpretation of scripture, because there is nothing in scripture to support the change. This is just another strategy of Satan to twist God’s words, and make us disobey Him: Christians keeping holy a pagan day, the day when the pagans worshiped the sun instead of the day God set apart as holy. 

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” ~ Daniel 7:25

Fact remains that there is nothing in scripture that supports a change of day:

The Baptist Church
---"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament - absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week...’To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question, never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated...’Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism." ~Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of the Baptist Manual, in a paper read before a New York minister’s conference held Nov.13, 1893

---"....The Sabbath was established originally (long before Moses) in no special connection with the Hebrews, but as an institution for all of mankind, in commemoration of God's rest after the six days of creation. It was designed for all the descendants of Adam." ~Adult Quarterly, Southern Baptist Convention series, Aug. 15, 1937.  

The Congregational Church
---"It is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath.. The Sabbath was founded on a specific, divine command. We can plead no such command for the observance of Sunday.. There is not a single line in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday." ~Dr R.W. Dale, "The Ten Commandments," pg. 106-107. 

The Lutheran Church
---"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel. In other words, they insist that Sunday is the divinely appointed New Testament Sabbath, and so they endeavor to enforce the Sabbatical observance of Sunday by so called blue laws...These churches err in their teaching, for the Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect." ~John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp. 15,16

The Episcopal Church
---"Where are we told in Scripture that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day...... The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it." ~Isaac Williams, D. D., Plain Sermons on the Catechism, Vol. 1, pp. 334-336.

The Presbyterian Church
---"The Sabbath is a part of the Decalogue - the Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution... Until, therefore, it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand... The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath." ~T.C. Blake, D.D., Theology Condensed, pp.474,475
 
The Methodist Church
---"It is true that there is no positive command for infant baptism. Nor is there any for keeping holy the first day of the week. Many believe that Christ changed the Sabbath. But, from his own words, we see that He came for no such purpose. Those who believe that Jesus changed the Sabbath base it only on a supposition." ~Amos Binney, "Theological Compendium," pp. 180-181.

The Nation of Islam
---The leader of the Nation of Islam Minister Farrakahn, in addressing White America said "You have not obeyed Divine Law, you have set yourself up as a law beside God, so whatever God says thou shall not do, you said 'it's all right, hang in there, go on and do it."........"God says you should keep the Sabbath. You didn't do it, so we (Black people) don't do it. See, we were your slaves, we came up under you, you were our teacher, you taught us and wanted us to call you master." ~Quoted from Minister Louis Farrakahn's speech at the Jacob Javit Center, in New York City, December 18, 1993, 

The Catholic Church
---"Sunday is our mark of authority. . .the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

---"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The day of the Lord" was chosen, not from any  direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power .... People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole  authority, should logically become Seventh-day Adventists, and keep Saturday  holy." (Saint Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.)

>(Agh all these numbers, they are hard to keep straight sometimes)
Yea. I almost sent you a couple of bible verses in Spanish lol 

Sabbaton in Col 2:17, could not refer to anything but 7th Day Sabbath, as it is not exclusive as Sabbatarians point it out to be.  How can it?

Sabbaton just means rest it can be applied to a weekly Sabbath (Leviticus 23:39) or to the seventh day Sabbath. That verse of Col 2:17 refers to the Sabbaths that were added and were actually a shadow of things to come. You believe the seventh day Sabbath is part of those Sabbaths that were shadows, but I don’t because the seventh day existed before sin (Genesis 2: 2-3). The bible points to the creation week when the seventh day Sabbath is mentioned (Exodus 16:26, Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 31:15, Exodus 35:2, Deuteronomy 5:13). The sacrificial system was introduced because of sin whereas the seventh day Sabbath wasn’t. As Jesus said “The Sabbath was made for man” (Mark 2:27), human beings; and Adam and Eve were certainly human beings, so the Sabbath was also made for them and applied to them as they also needed to work in Eden (Genesis 2:15). 

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”~ Colossians 2:14

“Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee~Deuteronomy 31:26

“And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.”~ Deuteronomy 10:2

That verse is certainly not referring to the seventh day Sabbath. 

>Ummm, have you read this verse? Leviticus 23:39
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Several other passages call this day, the eighth day (i.e. Numbers 29:35).
In concordance, many church fathers called Sunday, the eighth day.

Doesn’t matter how people call it, first day, eight day, Sunday, it wasn’t given by God. God didn’t rest in the first day of the week; He rested in the seventh, after He completed earth’ creation (in six days).
I don’t see why people that believe the law is abolish want to keep a holy day, why do that if according to them there is no rest required

>All the moral laws cannot be contained in the Decalogue, but they can be contained in the two greatest laws mentioned by Jesus. 
The Sabbath is not in any nature a moral law.

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”~ Mat 22:37-40

As I told you those two commandments summarize the whole law: If we love God with all our hearts we won’t have other gods, we won’t make idols, we will not take His name in vain, and we will remember His holy day. If we love our neighbor we will honor our parents, we won’t commit murder, we won’t commit adultery, we won’t steal, we won’t bear false witness, and we won’t covet.

Those two greatest commandments repeated by Jesus already existed: 

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:”~ Deuteronomy 6:4-6

“Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.”~ Leviticus 19:18 

Keeping holy what God set apart as holy at the creation of this world and doing what God commands is moral. It is good because God is good (Nahum 1:7, Luke 18:19), and the Law is good (romans 7:12, 16, 1 timothy 1:8). Look what happened when Adam and Eve disobeyed His words.

We are never going to agree. This will be my last reply to you about this topic. God bless

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Doctor-Why-Designs In reply to Nilopher [2014-10-20 15:10:53 +0000 UTC]

>The sign of Abraham's Covenant was circumcision, not the Sabbath (Genesis 17:10-13). This could very well be what the writer referred to in 1 Chronicle 16:15-17.
Circumcision was given to Abraham through the covenant, then to Isaac, then to Jacob.
The Book of Genesis is as much a book of law as the other books of Moses

The Decalogue and the 603 other commandments came from the same person(God), and they were given to Israel through the same person(Moses). Both are technically 'handwriting of ordinances', and both were referred to equally known as the Law of God and the Law of Moses, because well, those are the two beings who gave it to Israel. 
There is only  law recorded before the Fall of Man, and that is the command regarding not eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Saying that any of the Jewish patriarchs before Moses kept the Decalogue is like saying the Puritan colonists lived by the laws and precepts of the Bill of Rights.
Historically impossible.
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

To say that Sunday began with paganism, one can use the same argument for the Sabbath, as did Arthur Weigall. Of course Arthur Weigall pointed out everything pagan about Christianity and Judaism, yet oddly, SDA theologians like to quote him.
There is no historical proof prior to 260 AD that Sunday was a pagan day of worship, however, the Seventh Day was both Pagan and Judaic.

"The association between the Christian Sunday and the pagan veneration of the day of the Sun is not explicit before the time of Eusebius (ca. A.D. 260-340). Though Christ is often referred to by earlier Fathers as 'True Light' and 'Sun of Justice' no deliberate attempt was made prior to Eusebius to justify Sunday observance by means of the symbology of the day of the Sun." (From Sabbath to Sunday", p 261, by Samuele Bacchiocchi, Seventh-day Adventist historian).

"We have yet to determine the reason why many Christians abandoned the seventh day, the Jewish sabbath, for their worship services and selected an entirely different day, "the first day of the week." Since there is no evidence for a pre­Christian use of this day for religious worship on a weekly basis among Greco­Romans or Jews, the only convincing reason seems to be that worship on the first day of the week was a celebration of the day on which Jesus had risen from the dead (Mark 16:2, 9; Matt 28:1; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19: Justin I Apol. 67.7)." (Anchor Bible Dictionary, Worship, Early Christian, Vol 6, p 980.)

There is no historical evidence of the Day of the Sun being the day of Sun worship. However, the Pagan Sabbath, cultures like Babylon and Assyria, was linked the moon god, and other stellar deities.
This writer here points out the pagan attributes of aligned with the seventh day, not the first day.
www.piney.com/BabFeastMard.htm…

Constantine was a charismatic leader. His view of Christianity was mixed with his own pagan beliefs.
In a way, Constantine could be said as shifting the Pagan Sabbath to the First Day, to merge it with the Christian day of worship.

The Sabbath wasn't really a day of worship to the Jews. It was a day of rest. 

Vaya con Dios.

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