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TurnerMohan — Orcs debate

#orcs #tolkien #ugluk #lordoftherings #urukhai
Published: 2015-02-27 10:13:03 +0000 UTC; Views: 30348; Favourites: 422; Downloads: 186
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Description ugluk, grishnakh, and the unnamed (and soon to be un-headed) captain of the moria orcs debate their route and what to do with the prisoners. I've wanted to do this piece for a long time, as an entry in my collection of middle-earth historic costume plates (I guess you could call this one "late 3rd age orcs") the three-way debate seemed a good narrative moment in which to present the three main types of orcs encountered in tolkien's writing; the goblin, the "standard" orc of mordor, and the superior uruk.

The goblins of the mountains, unlike the foot soldiers of sauron or saruman, are more of less free creatures; they live in their own societies, have their own leaders and are basically pack hunters, like the wolves they occasionally team up with. I imagine they live hard lives, and they seem to care about each other; unlike the isengarders or the mordor orcs, they aren't operating on orders from any dark lord, and they don't know anything about the Ring or that Merry and Pippin are suspected to have it, they've come (several hundred miles under the sunlight, it should be noted) to avenge their kinsmen killed by the fellowship in moria. this one's armor and gear is alot more ragged and primitive than the others'; scraps of maille (some of which may be dwarven originally, and therefore of a quality far surpassing anything worn by ugluk or grishnakh) stitched together, many weapons, and a small inventory of dead animals tied around his waist for food. All things considered, he doesnt seem so bad, I kind of feel sorry for him; he's badly outmatched before these much bigger uruks with grishnakh having just turned on him.

for the uruk-hai (whose armor and gear is described by aragorn as being unlike those of other orcs) i was going for a medieval kind of feel. Middle-earth at the end of the third age seems a world just on the verge of it's own medieval period, and some peoples (like the jolly men of bree or the bold swan knights of dol amroth) seem to have made the leap already. as I've stated elsewhere, i think that plate armor will always be something of an invader species in middle-earth, something to be used only very rarely, but for the uruks; (who are indeed described as carrying longbows, a medieval invention, and being "iron shod" which calls sabatons to my mind) having been bred and outfitted by Saruman, the innovator, the metallurgist, the "cunning mind" who uses gunpowder and invents war machinery, a little venturing into plate seemed appropriate. in particular i was going for a look of the 13th-14th century; the armors at that time are often quite awkward looking; the interrum between the all-maille crusaders and the full "naked steel" harnesses of the fourteen and fifteen hundreds, and that physical awkwardness seemed right for the uruks of isengard, who are themselves hybrid creatures with some mannish blood. I imagine them walking straight-backed as a matter of regimental discipline, despite that their bodies aren't really built to do so (their wide belts were inspired by those lumbar support belts weightlifters use, i thought maybe they help their posture) and shaving their heads and bodies, as lice and other parasites likely plague the orcish population. in addition to medieval sources, aspects of their armor were taken from the roman loricas (a good fit, i think, for saruman's mass-manufactured armors), roman gladiatorial armors, and elements of japanese harnesses as well. lastly (and i don't know why, but it seemed to fit) a certain influence to the look of the uruks came from the some of the gear you see worn by modern soldiers, especially mercenaries; that floating couter on ugluk's elbow and those "saddle bags" (ugluk, like many of tolkien's orcs, is an anachronism; he comes off more like some twentieth century sergeant major than a warrior from ancient times, it's easy to picture him moving at a clip up and down the lines barking orders in his underlings' faces)

carrying their swords strapped across their backs rather than at their sides seems a natural fit for the long-armed, short-legged orcs. it was a semi-intentional choice on my part that all four parties appear to be left-handed, considered a mark of evil by medieval reckoning, so it seemed fitting to me that among the orcish population you'd get a disproportionate number of southpaws.

color version coming soon!
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Comments: 68

wa11abi3 [2025-03-17 14:33:49 +0000 UTC]

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Jonathan-Ghost [2025-03-16 22:21:49 +0000 UTC]

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RocketsandMonsters [2024-02-06 03:40:12 +0000 UTC]

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TurnerMohan In reply to RocketsandMonsters [2024-12-31 15:23:27 +0000 UTC]

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MoArtProductions [2015-09-04 07:35:55 +0000 UTC]

Something I actually didn't think before. I don't know if it's just the armor, but the Uruks look... fat. (Not that there's anything wrong with fat orcs, since there were a couple in the films, and plenty in the Shadow of Mordor game, some of them actually physically similar to these uruks actually. --

i.ytimg.com/vi/aJOC3KiLtzY/max…

abload.de/img/crossbztigb.jpg

cherubartist.com/wp-content/up…

(Not good with links)

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TurnerMohan In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-09-04 14:55:09 +0000 UTC]

They're not in my intention supposed to be fat, though they look somewhat barrel bellied in armor. I designed them to have very big, flared ribcages and wide hip blades, like gorillas or chimpanzees (type in gorilla skeleton vs. human skeleton on google and youll get a pretty good idea of what im talking about) its the reason gorillas and chimps have those big wide "guts" or abdominal areas that arent really fat at all, but closer to what you'd see on a human powerlifter.

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MoArtProductions In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-09-04 16:14:36 +0000 UTC]

Ah, ok.

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MoArtProductions [2015-06-29 01:54:28 +0000 UTC]

Perhaps it would be helpful to see a size chart between the different breeds, while also compared to men.

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TurnerMohan In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-06-29 06:47:14 +0000 UTC]

i'd say ugluk, the tallest of the bunch, you could seat at around 5'6"-5'7" with his fellow uruk a few inches shorter, grishnakh in the low 5's and the moria goblin somewhere around 4'6"-4'10". it'd be hard to tell the actual height of orcs i think, since most of them are pretty bent (easier with the uruks, who i imagine would stand up as straight as they can as a matter of regimental discipline) but a tall human hero like boromir (6'4"), or eomer/aragorn (both 6'6") would probably stand about a full head taller than ugluk here.

sounds small but then orcs i imagine to be built and proportioned much like apes; sturdy, wide (depending on the type, the goblins are probably pretty light) and strong, so a big ferocious captain like ugluk would be alot to handle, even at only five and a half feet tall (this is about the same height i'd imagine for azog, not the seven foot behemoth from the movies)

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MoArtProductions In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-06-29 06:49:50 +0000 UTC]

Ah, ok.

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Shabazik [2015-04-11 12:44:20 +0000 UTC]

loved both the art and description, as the lengthy thought behind this drawing!!

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ridikill [2015-03-29 11:34:17 +0000 UTC]

With the exception of the PJ's LOTR Weta orcs, these are easily the best representation of Tolkien's orcs I have ever seen (and these are probably more grounded in Tolkien's work too). The attention to detail is very impressive, such as all the supply satchels and bits and pieces these orcs have taken with them, which would surely be necessary on a long journey. This chapter is so much fun in the books, it's a real opportunity to look at Middle-Earth from the perspective of a cynical grunt rather than a high and mighty lord or a bewildered hobbit. I agree that Uglúk is somewhat anachronistic, and entertainingly so - his line in the book "you'll get bed and breakfast alright" is actually pretty close to his famous "looks like meat's back on the menu boys!" quip from the movies, in that both are a sarcastic allusion to a higher culture. I do love how you've captured Uglúk's character here, and also Grishnákh, who looks wonderfully sly and also accurate, with his squat build and long, hairy arms.

The line about the Moria orcs running hundreds of mile to avenge their folks is a curious one in that it seems rather against the grain of their character, but it is consistent with the orcs of the Misty Mountains getting all riled up and preparing for war because the Great Goblin was killed. Similarly, the Uruk-hai of Isengard seem to be genuinely loyal to Saruman and speak in glowing terms of him, while the orcs of Mordor only speak with utter dread and sometimes a little resentment about their own masters. I suppose, not being a true Dark Lord, Saruman needed to turn on the charm to win the orcs over and keep them loyal, whereas Sauron doesn't need to waste time with such matters and just uses his aura of supernatural dread to bend the Mordor orcs to his will.

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BenjaminOssoff [2015-03-05 22:29:11 +0000 UTC]

Again, I continue to be amazed by the amount of thought and consideration you put into your designs of characters and armor. Well done!

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TurnerMohan In reply to BenjaminOssoff [2015-03-06 06:56:32 +0000 UTC]

thank you my friend, your comments are always a delight to me

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Zeonista [2015-03-01 15:44:42 +0000 UTC]

This is a good picture, much in the line of the classic illustrators who could put a lot of feeling into a scene without word balloons. You do of course get a boost from the Professor, who was able to yet again bring up a timeless scene of a falling-out among brigands of competing loyalties. The tenseness of the quarrel is brought out, with the situation to the point of violent resolution, where the northern Orcs are ready to fight, but hesitate too long to work themselves into the killing frenzy despite Grishnakh's best efforts at "let's you and him fight" maneuvering. Ugluk of course will have none of it.

As a natural and very dominant lefty, I am just too young to have gotten the "bad hand" treatment in life, although my Japanese calligraphy instructor was most distressed the one time. I come by it  from a distinct source, the notoriously-left-handed Carr/Kerr/Ker family of the Angolo-Scottish Border region. The Gaelic-adapted Old Brythonic word that is the origin of the family name has the same meanings as "sinister". In the old days the Kerrs were a (in)famously quarrelsome lot, prone to feud and raid with little provocation required. Many athletes are also left-handed, so one may endlessly speculate on slender grounds about left-handedness and an attraction towards aggression-oriented recreation. 

I continue to enjoy how you bring out the "goblin" side of Orcs in a more dangerous and less fairy tale aspect, as all the figures have a measure of it. The not-fully-armed nature of the combatants (only one  is wearing a helm) neatly suggests a quarrel that has blazed up without preparation or forethought, and is being resolved in the quickest possible fashion, since Ugluk & Grishnakh both know they are on a deadline. Your uruk-hai look particularly good as basic examples of Sauron's "Orc 2.0" version, but the Isengarders of Ugluk's company are different looking enough from "black uruks of Mordor" that Aragorn (a ready expert on Orcs) remarks on their distinct appearance in looks and gear. Ugluk certainly boasts about the differences; the fighting uruk-hai of the White Hand walk upright under the Sun and do not hide from its light by burrowing into the mountains like "maggots". They are bigger and "efficiently" stronger and meaner, able to slay the great Warrior and capture the prized Halflings. (And incidentally smart enough to let the Mordor orcs and Mountain-hirelings take the brunt of Boromir's desperate wrath while they bend their bows. )  

Tolkien doesn't detail Grishnakh's armament to any great extent, aside from the gargoyle-faced dagger handle, but his description of the war-gear of Orcs of Morgul & Mordor elsewhere can let you extrapolate to some extent. It wouldn't be too heavy though, since Grishnakh was the leader of a scouting company sent on a retrieval mission, not a line unit of orc-soldiers. Ugluk's band ought to have a Medieval look, since Tolkien kits them out not unlike an English band of mercenary-minded longbow archers with great loyalty to the clever and successful leader, their Old Man. (The French POV of the "goddamns" of the warbands of the Hundred Years' War may be applied here. ) Tolkien's basic description of them as observed by Aragorn at the beginning of TTT is straightforward enough, although having some of them with spears or other pole arms along as helpful weapons is not out of the question. The use of yew bows and infantry-length broadswords also argues a more Man-like build, since Saruman is after efficiency in his operation (and there are no hunchback or slouch-shouldered longbow men), and what better weapon for an English writer to turn against a nation of horsemen than the bow that had secured victory against the odds in history? Tolkien then neatly undercuts Saruman's rational approach by having him cheap out on the raid and not assign enough of the uruk-hai to make Eomer pay for his boldness with a hailstorm of clothyard shafts.

Speaking of mountain-maggots, the grab-bag equipment of the rebellious Northerners makes sense, especially since their role is spear fodder to fill out the ranks of the raiders. Saruman's offer of "revenge" on non-Orcs (especially Orc-hating Rohirrim) would get him a lot of recruits, but one can imagine them being definitely more on quantity instead of quality. The company sent along on the raid seems a lot like latecomers being given a chance to prove themselves before getting more uniformly kitted out from the armories of Isengard. Ugluk is quite right to dismiss them elsewhere as being good for nothing in a pinch, and his half-strength company is trusted by Saruman to fulfill the mission.   

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ElrondPeredhel [2015-02-28 23:56:01 +0000 UTC]

Now that's a vary interisting piece and a great one too (new wallpaper) !

I always imagined Ugluk's and Grishnak's pack with lighter armors to be able to run long distances. But that's just me : after all they are "iron-shod" as you said. Though that's not specific to the end of the Third Age :

But the victory of the Elves was dear-bought For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades (Quenta Silmarillion)
Now that can be a different type of "iron-shod" : may be more like the Dwarven boots. It would not be absurd for me that the gear of the first Orcs looked alike to the first weapons and armors of the Dwarves since they seem to share so many aspects.

I like your explanations on the Orcs of the Misty Mountains too. Tolkien repeats the schema of the Hobit (with the Orcs trying to take revenge for the Great Goblin). We don't know how many kingdoms exist in that area but if Moria, Gundabad, and Goblintown are partly independant they have to share a connexion since the son of the chief of Moria seem to be the chief of Gundabad as well (or at least that's where he gathered his troops). But that glimpse of father and son relationship is perhaps the only clue of not-necessarly-negative emotions we have among all Orcs.
It makes me wonder also how their society works. Is the throne hereditary ? Does a son have to proove his worth on the battlefield ? Does he have to eliminates his brothers ? Was Bolg just chosen because of the strength and height he inherited from his father instead of being chosen as "the son of Azog" ?
Gibbon (as it seeems to me) or bonobo the guy looks quite pitiful anyway. Of course "taking revenge" included torturing the Hobbits (he or one of his kinsmen said "no time to kill them properly (...) no time for play on this trip") but he is an Orc so I imagine "fun" have to include pain and suffering for smaller and harmless creatures. I like the little details like the rats at his belt or the knives... How many weapons does he have ? I see a scimitar, a bow, a knife and the handle of what could be an axe. The parts of dwarf-scales are wonderful.

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-03-01 07:45:12 +0000 UTC]

Well light armor and "iron shod" don't make for much of a consistent design brief, I think the soldier orcs of isengard and mordor are likely wearing whatever they would normally wear into battle rather than being specifically outfitted for a light run. that was the Jackson strategy, to have them compartmentalized into different armors, like the lightweight guerrilla team sent out after the fellowship, but I picture the orcs - and their management by their respective lords - as a little sloppier than that. cheesy and conceptually lazy as it was, I kind of liked how sloppy and primitive the orcs in the bakshi movie came across; not an organized, trained force but  a loose, disorganized rabble barely held together by violent hard-asses like ugluk (it almost seems like, even with the uruks who seem sort of the spartans or marines of their species, military discipline is all but impossible to instill in orcs in a lasting and effective way, good thing they exist by the untold millions)

I once attempted to address (which is to say invent ) the details about the various, somewhat interconnected societies of the orcs of the misty mountains in a fan fiction comic book i'd written (but never drawn) about the war of the dwarves and orcs, as seen from the perspective of a young bolg, and which i'd hoped to function as this great, tell-all presentation of life in orcish society and what it is to be an orc. I never finished, but my ruminations from that project still play a large role in my depictions of the goblins.

pieces from shirts of scale seemed a good, hasty strategy for repairing holes or cuts in an old maille shirt that had maybe passed through a couple owners. I think you've got the weapon count right (a sword, knife, axe, bow and arrows) maybe he's got another dagger or two strapped to his belt in the front (possibly made by the woodmen on the eves of mirkwood, as i imagine is the case with that axe; the buckler i imagine was originally a steel boss on a man's shield)

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-05 19:19:34 +0000 UTC]

Well talking about the different cultures of the Misty Mountains is not entirely inventing since we have some clues about their differences. Goblintown is a refugiee-camp, a hidden refuge for the survivors of the war with the Dwarves, mostly inhabited by bandits and raiders apparently. Moria was a more powerful place since it was considered the stronghold (together with Gundabad) of Azog during the war of Dwarves and Orcs, it is also the remnant of Khazad-dûm which means that it was kind of a society of "rag and bones", collecting the weapons and treasures of the Dwarves to sell them or re-use them, but also a more organized one when it reached its pinnacle with miners collecting mithril and merchants selling it as far as Mordor (or more probably to Dol Guldur). Of Gundbad we don't know much since Tolkien never told a story taking place in that area but the fact that it was used as a gathering place for the Orcs' tribes and armies (in the Hobbit) just in the same purpose than the Dwarves before them (who used it for councils of the Seven Kings) is extremly interisting in itself as are the links with Angmar.

When your huge album of illustrations of Middle-Earth weaponry and clothing will be over you could do that comic : I'll be very interested to know what it could look like (and I'm never tired of your Orcs).

I'm with you in the idea of the Orcs having a lot of knives. After all it's one of the weapon that comes out the more during the chapter "The Uruk-haï" : with two of them falling just at the right moment to cut their tides either Pippin and Merry are really lucky (they are indeed) or the Orcs carry a lot of knives and I like that idea more. The idea in Warhammer that the lesser kinds of "Greenskins" purged themselves from their frustrations (and their opression by their stronger cousins) by torturing even smaller Orcs or tiny animals is quite appealing.
Btw : I'm not sure this Orc is a chieftain. He is described as quite small compared to the Uruks while some taller Orcs from his band join their strength with the Isengarders later in the chapter (Uruks of Moria may be or just greater Orcs). Either it means that the Orc-chieftain is not necessarly the strongest one in the horde or the Orcs of the North are more "open-minded" than others and eveyone in the "pack" has the right to speak (even if it's at the risk of being be-headed if a stronger Orc thinks you are wrong). Both ideas are interisting and you really attracted my attention on the fact that Grishnak's and Ugluk's followers are soldiers, professionnal warriors teached to obey (more or less), while the Orcs of Moria are someway volunteers.

I like a lot your Gorilla-like Uruks, that will make Ugluk a silverback then don't you think ? Looking at Jarhead (with Jake Gylenhaal) the other day I can't do anything but agree on your idea of them as some kind of "Marines" among the Orcs (or at least seeing themselves that way). Some of the features of the Uruks (being iron-shod and having large spearheads) allready present in the First Age would have naturally evolved from that point while others (longbows and short but large swords) would be innovations allowed by their bigger stature. I don't think though that the longbow are present as a way to highlight the technical advantage of Isengard since they are said to be similar to the bows used by most Men in ME. The Rangers of Ithilien for example have bows "man-high". If I wanted to criticize a little bit more (lol) I'll say that Pippin is rubbed against the "filthy jowl and the hairy ear" of an Uruk. But it can be explained by the fact that the Orcs didn't have the time to shave his ear (!) since they are running day and night. I have a hard time picturing an Orc bearded, also cause it will definitely make them more "mannish" than "elvish" (and I don't think we want to take a definitive stand on that subject) but the sideburns you gave to some are a good compromise between both. I can picture the Uruks as shaving their head and body but keeping their (more furnished than other Orcs because of the mannish blood running in their veins) sideburns as distinctive ornament. A little bit like the Landsknecht's mustache (your Uruks having gear that reminds me of them a bit and being some sort of elite warband themselves though not mercenaries).
Isengard could be a great chapter in your book (though that drawing shows you are going for a mixed approche looking for "moments" that shows different gears in situation : a very good idea to me) since it seems the equipment made in the forges of Saruman evolved very quickly : in the first battle of the Fords of Isen it is said that Isengard only produced rough shirts of mails while Gimli broke his axe at Helm's Deep on an "iron collar" (in the spirit of your Uruks something like that will do I believe even though such things exist in mails too).
I can really well picture Ugluk as a modern sergeant-major and I can imagine him looking with some sort of disbelief to Eomer who comes down from his horse to fight him "fairly" : a move he will consider stupid and risky before seeing the man's ability in sword-fight. Azog like Ugluk doesn't really seem to care about "fair-fight" or that sort of stuff, looking more about victory than the way to have it.

Ho and did I say that piece looks like a wonderful "ancient-looking" plate with all the intricated details all in B&W ? Good work indeed ("one of his best pieces so far" said a friend... that's what I think about almost half of your new pieces when they come out so I stop saying that myself).

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-03-06 06:49:08 +0000 UTC]

well contemplating middle-earth geopolitics and what are important places/alliances/trade routes from a non human or elvish centric position is i find a great excercise for getting a broader sense of middle-earth (the dwarf-centric perspective is also fascinating to me).

i tend to think of goblin town (as it would probably only be called in the more juvenile-toned "hobbit") as being in no way the only settlement of it's kind in the misty mountains, but likely one of many similarly sized settlements between gundabad and moria. those two definitely seem to be the big two orcish sites in the misty mountains, and as you mention, i would expect, given the time frame, that atleast during azog and bolgs lifetime (and probably for some while before) both had been in some degree of communication/cooperation with sauron's captains in dol guldur (this was something i actually really liked about the hobbit films; making azog, the "king" in moria also an active player in the larger forces of evil) the relationship between the orcish capital at gundabad and the old kingdom of angmar is never made that clear, but it seems reasonable to assume that among the leading orcs of gundabad - and moria for that matter - might have been many descendents of the witchking's forces; the orcish captain in moria who spears frodo is said to be large and black skinned - which suggests possibly a descendant of uruks of mordor/dol-guldur, which is what i always figured azog and bolg to be as well - while the orcs of moria are later described as small and sallow skinned. I always liked the idea of there being (in azog's time) two castes in moria; that larger black skinned type, originally sent to moria by sauron to swell it's numbers, and a much larger (and lower) caste of "goblins" indigenous to the misty mountains, who came to moria first and on their own, after the dwarves had been driven out (this duality kind of dovetails with tolkien's - admittetly probaby pretty unformed at this point - sole reference in the hobbit to the "big orcs" in the mountains up north, bolg and his ilk). this one here i imagine to be among that latter kind; a classic "cave rat." you're right, he is not remarked to be a captain, but is the one to speak for his people, who don't seem to have a definite leader in this expedition, they actually do seem pretty democratic with eachother compared to the soldiers with their barking captains or despotic alpha dogs like azog and bolg; maybe that smaller, unaffiliated "goblin type" is just more reasonable in general as orcs go. I always kind of liked the idea (and may devote an "historic costume" plate to it) that the smaller goblin types are the only orcs (for the most part) who are the proper stature to ride wargs, and are really the main race of orcs to have established a working relationship with them, kind of similar to the working relationship between primitive man and early (barely)domesticated canines (if those had been large enough for us to ride

knives seem like something orcs would have in plenty. they've got a long reputation as a kind of "lower class" weapon, the kind you associate with pirates or bar-room brawls. I imagine alot of orcs would be disconcertingly good with them, fighting, throwing, ect.

yeah i guess that would make Ugluk the silverback of the bunch he wouldnt be bad with some silver chin beard like a mature ape. facial hair is always a tough call with orcs because 1) if you go on the idea (as most people do) that they were made from corrupted elves, it stands well enough to reason that they would similarly be lacking in facial hair (unless perhaps at a great age) and also orcs are so filthy that you'd kind of figure if they could grow beards just about every orc would have one. however, elvish origins aside, the orcs are consistently remarked to be hairy (being excessively hairy seems to be a classic indicator of wickedness and beastiality - like the wolfman or dracula's hairy palms - which is what inspired the ratty manes on these two ) i figure (in keeping with the ape/subhuman design strategy i've been working with) that orcs are usually bearded (albeit quite weakly in some cases, like the sallow-skinned "exaggerated mongoloid" types) like apes; with hair growing on their chins, necks and cheeks, but not mustaches (giving many like grishnakh that ape-like long bare "monkey lip" you see in just about every 19th century cartoon of an irishman), the uruks may have some protocols about keeping their hair in check, but, as in all other aspects, i imagine most of them arent as disciplined about it as ugluk (his backup guy pictured here could use a shave)

jarhead is one of many movies (often they're movies about the military, prison, or skinheads) that offers a great presentation of "orcs" in human form; their humor, their ever-strained but enjoyable comraderie with eachother, the relationship between the grunts and their roaring captains and the (largely faceless) larger powers they serve. Harry Andrews in "the hill", stephen graham in "this is england," david harewood in "blood diamond" and pretty much the whole cast of "Alien 3" are all basically perfect representations of orcs.

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-06 18:30:48 +0000 UTC]

Yes Tolkien did not care much about trade, cities, etc. but he was so serious in detailing his world that it does work most of the time. I sometime wonders if Tolkien thougt it all or if sometimes it is our sole look on unetailed aspects (like trade routes or cultures) that make it coherent. A mix of both I will say. I recently remarked (on another aspect) that in the Lost Tales (1917) he said that Idril took the Eagle as a symbol after she was saved by Thorondor's people : I don't believed it is said anywhere else. In the Unfinished Tales the Elessar is said to be given to Idril by Enerdhil (that was written in the sixties) and we know that it was an "eagle-shaped silver brooch" : I don't think that's just chance. The man as an awesome memory, yet, he can confuse character's names like Maedhros and Maglor... go figure !

Yes Goblin-town doesn't sound really frightening nor "orcish". I don't know how Orcs call themselves by the way ? In the Two Towers they refer to themselves as "orcs" (in "The Uruk-haï") and as "Uruks" (in "The choice of Master Samwise") which can lead to think that both Gorbag and Shagrat are Uruks (it is my opinion but without Jackson's movies I don't think anyone will think differently).
I don't know about Goblin-town size but the thing is that the Great Goblin does seem to be an important character and Tolkien reffered to him as a potential "boldog" or at least as a descendant of these "orc-maiar". That could explain why Gandalf stabbed him personnaly instead of a more indirect attack (which is what he usually does against Orcs or Wolves).
As for Angmar and Gundabad it seemed reasonable since it's the closest orcish settlement we know of in the area of the Witch-King's realm. But after all the hosts of Angmar aren't that strong (compared to Gondor's armies for example) so they may come from smaller and unknown settlements. I have no real opinion on that matter. I considered your "cave-rat" not to be a captain because he is remarked with his companions to be "small" while "a few of the larger and bolder Northerners remained with them [Isengarders]" (I consider they are some kind of the larger kind with dark skins you describe). May be these last ones came because of the great captain of the chamber of Marzabûl while the others came to avenge the death of leaders of their kind and were more reluctant and less informed. The "lesser ones" don't know anything about the Ring but the great Uruk of Marzabûl went directly to Frodo and attempted to kill him first : either the Ring drags Orcs against him like it did for Isildur (Frodo is also hit two times by arrows while the rest of the Company remain unharmed) or he has informations the other Orcs don't have. That could explain why the greater and broader Northerners are less reluctant to follow Ugluk.
I agree with you for the Orcs riding Wargs and Wolves. Apparently Wargs, Wolves and Werewolves, are three different types (even if Tolkien refers to the three as "wolves" in several occasions) but the description of Wargs and Werewolves (as wolves inhabited by spirits or demons) dragged me to think that the first one descended from the second : they are some type of weakened werewolves who cannot bear sunlight and are of a normal wolf-size and only more evil. The fact that Aragorn needs to wait for their bodies to disappear to be sure that they were not just wild wolves kinda support my opinion. So of course I agree that only the smaller Orcs would be sufficiently light to be carried by Wargs and wolves. It is remarkable that no wolfriders are remarked on the Pelennor and at the Morannon : if the Orcs of Mordor are larger (like Grishnak) that makes sense even though some "snufflers" (surprisingly black-skinned) could be able to they won't be a force important enough to be noticed may be.
I like that Grishnak look like a tough guy. It always strike me that teh Hobbit considered him remarkably "strong" after being carried by a Man like Boromir and a bunch of Uruks : he had to be quite strong for an Orc, like an old male-chimpanzee indeed.

I can't say more on the hair : you thougt more than me on that subject and I entirely agree with you.

Considering that Tolkien did compare some men behaviours in times of war with "acting like Orcs" it is obviously an accurate comparison.

It is on an entirely other subject but I thougt you will consider funny that in the Lost Tales Tolkien consider the English as the "rightful owners" of England since they were the "people of Inwë" (Ingwë) who teached them in the tradition of the fairies thus making them the heirs of the Elves in "Middle-Earth". I am glad he did not keep that part of his legendarium in the later works.

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-03-09 06:30:24 +0000 UTC]

i definitely think tolkien fans like myself see consistencies where tolkien didnt intend them, but my attitude toward those is that tolkien's world is so extensive and so credible feeling that alot of the time it's pretty easy to just connect one or two dots on the map that he never did, and if it helps the person doing so to better understand middle-earth themself and doesnt contradict anything tolkien said on the subject, I'm all for it.

i think the orcish word for orc is "uruk," although there is some debate as to whether the word "snaga" (which means "slave") refers only to slaves/underlings (one of many such derogatory terms in orcish, i would think) or actually refers to a type of orc - most likely the smaller, sallow-skinned "goblin" type - that has been historically subjugated to or just considered lower in the pecking order than the so named uruks. it seems to me that saruman's uruk-hai, though their name only means "the orc-folk," are a new thing, the result of extensive genetic tampering on saruman's part, and not the same thing as the "uruks" - which may just mean "plain-old-regular-orcs" - of mordor (grishnakh i expect would fall into this category). i suppose (and this is mainly my own way of looking at things, but it seems somewhat verified by such details as there seeming to be two types of orcs in moria, b) the divergent words "snaga" and "uruk" to mean orcs, and the distinction in the hobbit - though likely only syntactical - between the goblins and the comparatively "big orcs") that, for most of the thousands and thousands of years of their species' history, with exceptions like saruman's crossbreeding experiments or the half-orcs produced by parings of orcs with the most debased people out in rhun or harad, orcs have basically fallen into two categories; the "standard" orc or uruk (like grishnakh) and the "goblin." that's just my way of looking at it, but i'll stick with it until i hear something better

yes i tend to think of the wargs as the descendants of the were-wolves of the first age, long since diluted and lessened, but retaining some of the intelligence and formidability of their ancestors (just as a "great" orc of the third age like azog might be - though he probably wouldnt even know it himself - the long descendent of a boldog; creatures i always imagined as looking quite a bit like movie-azog, incedentally) i've been giving wargs and their relationship with the goblins of the mountains alot of thought the last few days, in preparation for my next piece. it intrigues me to think that maybe the two species sort of re-discovered eachother in the wild; both species are descended from the scattered remains of angband's forces and seem to have "gone native" in the ensuing millennia; i like to think maybe they found one another again in the lands about the misty mountains and wherever else, and, both being pack hunters and creatures of morgoth, teamed up for their mutual benefit, like a dark version of the relationship between man and early domesticated dogs. orcs themselves are kind of like wicked, undomesticated humans (or elves) sort of to us what wolves are to dogs (it's interesting, and leads me in this direction, that the only visual parrallel we ever see to the orcs riding around on wargs is the way luthien is carried all over the place by huan, a dog; man's "best friend", and a veteran slayer of morgoth's monsters; specifically wolves)

yes i know that bit from lost tales. to an extent it seems like an offputting amount of tolkien's intent with his work of creating a "mythology for england" was always to grant the english a kind of spiritual superiority over their neighbors from having been "touched" by the elves. to his credit it's totally original; I cant think of anyone else during tolkien's lifetime (or at any other time for that matter) who tried to justify a belief in their own culture's superiority from that angle

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-30 11:55:24 +0000 UTC]

That's funny how the side of the answer expanded each time one of us responded to the other ! Took me almost two hours to answer this time...

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-30 11:50:41 +0000 UTC]

I agree with your idea of "connecting the dots" : after all what is the story of Glorfindel if not Tolkien "connecting dots" himself ?

I had a lot of thinkings about the Orc/Uruk thing and my thougts on that subject are kind of perpetually evolving. But for now I disagree with your interpretation : for me Uruks of Mordor and Isengard may have a different origin but apparently look similar. They are closely associated like in the sentence in which Tolkien explains the word "Uruk-hai" where he stated that the word evolved to apply only to the greater Orcs of Mordor and Isengard and there is at least one time in which "Uruk-hai" is used to described Orcs of Mordor :

'Whose blame's that?' said the soldier. 'Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai ; or maybe it's all the lot together.'
'Ar!' said the tracker. 'They've lost their heads, that's what it is. And some of the bosses are going to lose their skins too, I guess, if what I hear is true: Tower raided and all, and hundreds of your lads done in, and prisoner got away. If that's the way you fighters go on, small wonder there's bad news from the battles.' (LotR ; VI ; 2)
The fact that the "tracker" call the Uruk-hai "your lads" mean that the soldier with him is an Uruk which give us a good description of them :
The other was a big fighting-orc, like those of Shagrat's company, bearing the token of the Eye. He also had a bow at his back and carried a short broad-headed spear. (LotR ; VI ; 2)It is noticeable that (unlike the tracker) his bow is not said to be a "hornbow" (even if that doesn't mean that it is made of hew just like the Isengarders') and Shagrat and Gorbag's folk use "short (...) broad-bladed stabbing-sword" similar to the "short-swords" of the Isengarders. All that common equipment (that I guess larger Orcs do use because of their different body-structure) makes me think that Black Uruks of Mordor closely resemble the Uruk-hai of Isengard (who may be just as black if we look at Uglúk). That implies that Grishnak is not one of them but more one of the larger Orcs who allready existed in Isildur's times (mentionned in The Battle of the Gladden Fields) unlike the Uruks of Mordor who appeared only at the end of the Third Age :
In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor
That will also confirms Christopher's opinion that Tolkien only use "Uruks" as an "anglicization" of Uruk-hai (or to differentiate between Uruk-hai = "all Uruks" and Uruks = "some/several Uruks").

If Saruman's Orcs are the result of "genetical tampering" and crossbreeding nothing prevented Sauron from doing the same. Especially since in Tolkien's later works Orcs are said to be Sauron's creation : a deterioration of Men done while Morgoth was behind bars in Valinor. In the same writings (In War of the Jewels) he also says that the word 'Uruk' was used only for the most disciplined and trained Orcs of his armies the other species (plural) being called Snaga. In another HoME (Morgoth's Ring) he mentions that Saruman may just have rediscovered an ancient "recipe" making him able to breed Orcs with Men and creating Orcs taller and more twisted (but he doesn't state if that kind is what is called "Uruks").

It could mean that the Uruk-hai existed in the First Age just as in the Third but disappeared after (either caused they were all killed or because they mixed again with their lesser cousins like the Werewolves with the wolves... may be being at the origin of the "greater Orcs of the Second Age") and if they haven't been seen for millenias it will explain why they are often described as a "new thing" in the late Third Age.

While the Man-Orcs and Orc-Men of Saruman probably have some dunnish blood Sauron could have used people (as you said) from Rhûn and Harad... or Khand (which will explain that very weird part) :

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. (LotR ; V ; 6)
Who fears the sun ? Just Orcs ? Or also troll-men and Variags ? If so that will explain why the first look so despicable and why the second or so mysterious ! The main benefit of breeding Uruks seem to have them not fearing sunlight but they do hate it though (like if they were in some in-between compared to Orcs and Men : like Men they see better at sunlight than in the dark but like Orcs they like it better when it is dark than when it's sunny).

As for the Orcs of the Misty Mountains it his very hard to tell. If the Captain of the Chamber of Marzabûl is a "black Uruk of Mordor" (and everything seem to lmake us believe so) he is using a scimitar (just like Azog or Bolg's guard) which will invalidate my anterior thoughts. May be he adopted the local gear ? Or may be I'm wrong ? It may also be that Tolkien didn't have a clear idea at that point of the tale of the exact wargear of the Uruks and did not come back on that part (cause he was more a maniac on language than on weapons...) ? It is noticeable that some of the greater Orcs of the Misty Mountains side with the Isengarders (and are fast enough to follow them). I think at least that many "races" of Orcs inhabited the Misty Mountains : Snagas made very small by the constant crawling in the tunnels (and with very keen sight in the dark for the same reason), remnants of the Boldogs of the First Age and of the greater Orcs of the second, black Uruks of Modor sent by Sauron and probably Orcs who are a mix of these four or five different types. It appear that the Misty Mountains, being that huge and central chain of peaks with an infinity of caves and tunnels to hide in is nearly impossible to really "clean" entirely from its Orcs : even after the nearly-genocidal war of the Dwarves against them there are still many hiding.

That's where my thougts are at that point...

I am just as much struggling with the word Snaga than you are. Sure Tolkien stated it applied to the lesser species of Orcs but the word is used by both Shagrat and Uglúk for one of their men. Like here :

‘I know,’ growled Uglúk. ‘The cursed horse-boys have got wind of us. But that’s all your fault, Snaga. You and the other scouts ought to have your ears cut off. But we are the fighters. We’ll feast on horseflesh yet, or something better.’ (LotR ; III ; 3)There are two options for me :

- The word "snaga" may not be used as specifically as "uruk" and can be used to refer to the smaller species or as an insult used by an Uruk against another Uruk who has failed to be worthy of that appelation (which works very well given to the context of the two occurences of the word).

- The word only means "lesser Orc" and is not by itself an insult but Uglúk and Shagrat both have some Snagas as scouts (trackers) or "squires" (it seems logic to me that the Uruk-hai consider themselves as the "knights" of their people and I can really well imagine their captains could use some Snagas to wear part of their gear for them since they seem to carry a lot of equipment : a sword, one or many knives, a longbow, a spear and eventually a shield).

A last consideration on Orcs on my part would be that even if it seems that "the darker : the bigger" (like the "swarthy" Isengarders lead by the black-skinned Uglúk) there are exception since the small tracker met by Sam and Frodo is black-skinned as well (but he is a tough little fellow since he didn't fear his Uruk-companion, said he was a better archer and a quicker runner and was able to take him down while running -confirming his brag-). The rule probably apply but with exceptions (in that regard the "whitey" movie-Azog wasn't a bad idea).

All the opposite for Wargs and wolves : you did think about it more than me and I have nothing to add on that matter that you haven't allready said.

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MikesScribbles In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-07-27 20:02:28 +0000 UTC]

Where did I get the idea that orcs were degenerate elven stock, not human origin?
Agreed completely on the use of socially accepted insults /epithets in degrading lesser or powerless members of the same fighting force.

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to MikesScribbles [2015-08-13 14:06:40 +0000 UTC]

You got that idea from the published Silmarillion : the elvish origin is the more coherent but the human origin is Tolkien's last idea on the subject (may be he would have changed it again... or may be not). Christopher choose the elvish origin, even though Tolkien wrote that Orc's were not elvish, because it was the idea of Orc's origin that Tolkien hold to for the longest period and it was easier to integrate into the text of the Silmarillion as it was.

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MikesScribbles In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-08-14 02:59:35 +0000 UTC]

That is hilarious, because Silmarillion is the book I never finished [my longest left unfinished, since 1982] 

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to MikesScribbles [2015-08-16 17:08:49 +0000 UTC]

It's not that far in the book so you may have read it... otherwise it's one of the most common debate on Tolkien fans' forums. ^^

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TurnerMohan In reply to ElrondPeredhel [2015-03-31 01:41:00 +0000 UTC]

i think i all likelihood when contemplating the word "snaga" you're better served thinking less like a taxonomist and more like someone who would use words like "nigger" "coolie" "kafir" "wog" "hottentot," or just "filth" to describe others they feel superior to (even if snaga might be said to "officially" denote a specific racial class, "hottentot" officially referred to a native people of south africa but before long was used to refer to polynesians, just as "niggers" or "blacks" were popularly used terms in the british raj to refer to indians) as with their choices of weapons (a list of about half a dozen articles which tolkien seems to have recycled with only very little regard to who was using them) i think the terms - and even species denoted by those terms - for orcs were perhaps more fluid and less set in his mind than they become in the minds of fans; i don't think terms he'll opt for in a sentence here or there (or weapons, often with the same somewhat arbitrary feeling, like he's not checking what he wrote earlier) are a really good guide for building a super solid picture of the division of the orcs. i prefer for my own purposes to rely more on the picture provided by a more broad reading of tolkien's text; to get a sense of what generally seems to have been kicking around in his head. it's perhaps not a method that'll win you any trivia contests, but i consider it a more useful artist's method (or maybe i'm just still high off my own farts after calling the shit out of that pre-raphaelite issue )

oh and incidentally, aragorn specifically remarks upon the gear of the uruks of isengard (including their broad bladed swords) as being notably different from those used by other orcs. maybe tolkien just forgot about that when he wrote about shagrat and gorbag, or maybe aragorn hasn't faced morgul orcs (doubtful) but i think i'll take aragorn's expertise over tolkien's as to the general "uniqueness" of the isengarders.

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-31 17:06:33 +0000 UTC]

Well for precision there are things that Tolkien just throw at you for no apparent reason. A good example being the "lance" of Gil-galad in the Lord of the Rings : it is remarkable since Tolkien always prefer "spear" over "lance" even for riders -may be because it is a french word- but not important since he use "spear" to describe Aeglos the rest of the time. But for the weaponry of the Orcs you can date their use of hornbows and scimitars from very early times (The Lost Tales) so the mention of "short-blades" or "longbows" and "yew" is meaningful to me.

My interpretation is that Aragorn never went into Mordor (only on its borders) and that the "fighters" (Uruks) are kept inside its lands for fture wars and there is no war between Gondor and Mordor before the attack on Osgiliath : long after Aragorn left the region.

But I have to agree on the word "snaga" : Tolkien was aware of the multiplicty of meanings and always play with the different sens of each of his words so I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case once again.

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-04 23:05:19 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, I enjoyed Bakshi's Orcs, which had a delightfully savage look and manner to them. Delightfully minimal in their presentation, but with the salient Orcish features (fangs, cat eyes, bad attitude, dangerous if you are a sloppy fighter) nicely highlighted. For those of you who don't know what we are talking about, here's one fan-made example. 

zeonista.deviantart.com/art/Or…

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ElrondPeredhel In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-03 19:06:22 +0000 UTC]

Thing is that I pictured the Orcs light armored in a similar purpose than the Three Hunters got rid of most of their luggage before going "hunting". Not that they will have armors especially designed for that (though Tolkien mentionned Uruks and Orcs trained for long-distance runs and Orcs of the First Age trained in forest-fighting) but just that they would get rid of most of the heaviest pieces to run faster. Of course they don't know that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are after them but they seem to be pretty hurried anyway and fearful of the Rohirrim. Beside they don't have a lot of food apparently but that could be also because they weren't planning to run after the Fellowship for so long. It is remarkable that Tolkien never mentionned (as far as I remember) how the three parties met and planned their ambush. For example how come that the Isengarders weren't from the beggining on the western part ? May be to avoid Fangorn in the first place ?
I've seen the cartoon-Hobbit (in which Orcs are pictured as some kind of ogres with pale-grey-skin and huge mouths) but I've never seen the Bakshi movie except on Youtube... I should give it a try. From a quick research the Orcs were a bit "undefined" which isn't stupid since Tolkien doesn't described them much and did look primitive and ragged... not too bad an attempt. The Orcs of Mordor in the movies (as for their waregear and clothes) were extremly satisfying and I believe the archetype (despite a too human face) was Gorbag with this very well-done lamellar armor (but Sam do say that the Orcs of Morguk have a very good equipment) completed with furry pants (also mentionned) and and one of the only with a very ape-like attitude (probably to look more unlike Shagrat) and just as pervert as he should. The only thing with these were their faces and body structure mainly.
It seems that even the Uruks are hard to maintain as a disciplined force indeed, though Pippin notice that they run as an organized formation some Isengarders complain about "ol' Ugluk" and in Mordor a battalion of "Black Uruks of Barad-dûr" charge lesser Orcs. But it seems that both Isengarders and Uruks of Mordor share some sense of discipline, a disgust for their lesser "cousins" and a tendency to call them "traitors" or "deserters"...

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Libra1010 [2015-02-28 17:45:46 +0000 UTC]

 One thought of my own which I would like to add is that it has quite often occurred to me is that while the Armour of an Orc is frequently well-made (albeit designed more for raw intimidation value than in the interests of aesthetic balance), it tends to be of the 'Munition' sort which is not tailored to the individual wearer - so the individual Orc would likely have to wrap or tuck or pad his armour out with some care in the interests of ensuring a better fit (because given that their 'God' was Morgoth, he certainly wouldn't help them if they were caught meddling with kit likely to be more highly-valued than they themselves were - and which was likely expected to enjoy a far longer service life than any single Orc).

 Its not impossible that there would be something of a black market dedicated to making sure an Orc could acquire kit that fitted, no matter who happened to have been issued with it in the first place.

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Zeonista In reply to Libra1010 [2015-03-02 00:20:06 +0000 UTC]

In a side note to "The Battles of the Fords of Isen" Tolkien mentions the lack of armor supplied to the Dunlendings, since at Isengard the only armor was "the clumsy and heavy mail of the Orcs, made for their own use only". This would support your idea that the Orcs of whatever organized army got munitions-quality armor of one-size-fits-most types, although with coats of mail rather than cuirasses this is not much of a problem. Scale armor and brigandine are easy-to-make forms of body armor, so TurnerMohan has something going on there.  

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Libra1010 In reply to Zeonista [2015-03-04 21:35:44 +0000 UTC]

 Very true. 

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2015-02-28 23:03:44 +0000 UTC]

i figure saruman's uruks have essentially mass manufactured armor, that said they're not mass manufactured in the modern industrial sense, it all still has to be made by hand, so unlike the movie uruks' gear, they're not completely cookie cutter (ugluk and his lieutenant here have different type brigandines and slightly different gear) plus - also unlike the movie version, inwhich the uruks spring to life fully grown from the mud - i sense saruman has been experimenting with human-orc hybrids for some time now, and the uruks of isengard have somewhat of their own culture, not as old or organic maybe as that of the mordor orcs or the goblins, but yeah i expect plenty of trading and bartering armor and supplies for the best fit goes on among all orcs. the dark lords (except maybe saruman) don't seem to take much interest in how their endless hordes outfit themselves or really anything else they do with their lives besides serving their purpose, so i expect most of orcish armor manufature is up to the orcs themselves, rather than receiving design briefs from on high (with the exception, again, of saruman, who it's not hard to picture as something of a hitler when it comes to his master race creation, instilling discipline and even micromanaging details about their gear and such)

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-04 21:29:15 +0000 UTC]

 If nothing else old Cunning-Mind would have to take great care to make sure that the livery of his bully-boys doesn't clash with that mantle of many colours he takes to sporting - I have to admit that I would be interested in reading your thoughts on how best to depict such a … SEVENTIES bit of costumery! 

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-02 00:39:59 +0000 UTC]

"Factory made" means something different in pre-industrial terms, even if it does mean a dozen guys sitting around turning out helmets, while in the next "factory" workshop building a dozen guys are making plaques for scale coats, and in the next one over a dozen guys are making spearheads and sword blades. I would say that there were many styles of Orcish equipment in Mordor, and places like Gundabad or Mount Gram where the Orcs might have been able to set up individual armories. Indeed, Sam notes in ROTK when disguising Frodo as a soldier-orc that Gorbag's Morgul-made gear "was better made and a better fit", so a veteran like Aragorn might be able to ID a warband's origin from the details of their equipment. Saruman made some real distinct changes in his troops' war gear, but in most other places Orcish stuff ran to some established types modified to local taste. I imagine the northern company in the orc-raid had a real motley of gear they had mainly looted or stolen or gotten handed by a more senior warrior who had gotten something new & better.

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Libra1010 [2015-02-28 17:33:05 +0000 UTC]

 Now THESE are Orcs; quite frankly having seen this image of those classic Foot-Soldiers of Tyranny by Dark Lord I shall now measure all others against it (and one fears all too many will fall short!).

 Quite frankly Master Mohan I think you have caught the perfect balance of the not-quite-human and all-too-human with this depiction of Middle-Earth's most numerous species of headache; they look expressive enough to engage with and understand, but mean and double-tough enough to make it quite understandable why The Fellowship fought for their lives first and didn't manage to find time to worry very much about the sort of moral conundrums which Professor Tolkien himself pondered.

 Put another way, I'd like to imagine that even the Orcs might be redeemed with time, but I tend to believe that it would take a rather long time even after the Fall of the Dark Lord (generations in all likelihood) for them to grow away from the mould into which they had been set by a very, very long time in the Power of first Morgoth and then Sauron.

 Just looking at those Uruk-Hai in particular make me suspect that had any of them lived, they would have fought on in much the same way as those Japanese who failed to believe that the Land of the Rising Sun had finished fighting World War II and lost.

 I also admire the way in which you have depicted Grishnahk (equally nasty, but all wire and ill-will compared to the burly Ugluk) and the captain of the Moria Goblins (sympathetic in the way a wild wolf or a feral dog can be - but just as capable of returning kindness with fangs, rather than thanks, preferring to bite the hand that feeds it rather than submit to be tamed).

  

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MoArtProductions [2015-02-27 20:38:20 +0000 UTC]

I thought the orc that lost his head in that scene was a lesser orc of Mordor or even Isengard itself. I recall Ugluk saying to the goblins to get moving before he "Chops a few of their heads to put some sense into the others." But I might be wrong.

As for the Uruk-Hai look here (In regards to the link of Azog you showed me once) I can definitely see the big powerful chimp analogy here, but as plausible man/orc hybrids, if you really wanna go crazy, I suggests showing the uruk-hai as big buff Australopethicus or Homo Habilis, or even use the apes from the orginal Planet of the Apes movie for reference.

Alos, it may just be me, but from the angle I'm looking it, it looks like Grishnakh is smoking a cigar.

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TurnerMohan In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-03-01 07:12:28 +0000 UTC]

all those creatures were used (except maybe the apes from the original POTA, I must admit i didnt think of them) when i say "ape like" i'm not necessarily going only on traits of modern day apes but also on those traits of humanity in our earlier stages when we were more "ape-like" than we are now (the proportionally wide hips, bunched shoulders, and thick legs of the uruksfor example come from neanderthals as much as from any ape alive today) also i used a fair amount of monkey anatomy on the moria orc, and a good amount of big cat in the faces of the uruks, as well as alot of racial stereotypes (as portrayed in old political cartoons) of asian, black, and even irish people like you'd see in the 19th century. basically drawing on all those parts of our human heritage that would fail the "western ideal test" as reckoned by certain european thinkers of tolkien's day (the 19th & early 20th century).

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Jessica42 [2015-02-27 19:03:00 +0000 UTC]

I like the overall concept of armour and the logic trains that you have used.

Your southpaw remark also explains why so few middle earth races use shields in the books. A left handed attacker negates many of the advantages that a shield offers a defendant.

And I saw that as a strong southpaw.

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uauaUahalo [2015-02-27 18:55:07 +0000 UTC]

and again a stunning piece of art and a very well chosen scene! it was one of my favourite ones reeding the books and for some reason also one of the most pictographic ones which left a lot of images in my head. it is also very interesting because it is one of the few moments one gets a deeper look into the orcish society which normaly is pretended to do not exist so there doesn't come up any questions about the ethical correctness killing them always and everywhere they are encountered. ("let's hunt some orcs..!")

i love your old-fashioned style a lot and i think it fits exacly into tolkiens world as it has a medival-setting and seems so real in comparison to many other fantasy worlds and you really captured the orcish feeling in this one. especially i love the ape like bodies with the long arms and short legs and that you didn't draw the uruks like they were shown in the movies. for me their anatomy was just too human like and too athletic, especially lurtz.. they seemed to be more like very very evil humen.

in your work they have some gorilla feeling to me, including their faces, while the goblin and grishnakh (representing the orcs of mordor) are more similar seeming to belong to one family in a biological understanding. kind of chimpanze and bonobo, while the goblin would be the bonobo (even if of course not as harmonic),  being thinner and more sociable (at least with its own kind like you are also suggesting ) and grishnakh would be the chimpanzee male with muscle packed arms and a stongly agressive potential.
this contrast between these two and the uruks underlines in a very good way the differences, uruks-hai being breeded and the other two kinds being more the result of an evolutionary process (i know it is said that morgoth corrupted some elves turning them into orcs and so basicly also breeded them, but this happened over a far longer period of time and as the valar seem to be the embodiment of forces of the nature one could consider this to be an evolutionary process)

like always a very elaborated piece of art and i think my favourite orc themed so far! can't wait to see the coloured version!

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TurnerMohan In reply to uauaUahalo [2015-02-27 20:44:46 +0000 UTC]

thank you my friend. I'm a big fan of the "old fashioned" style of illustration as you put it (i think I have a pretty good idea of what you mean when you say that) I beleive it works with tolkien's world, which has this great feeling of authenticity and antiqueness to it. I'm not a fan of the more video gamey type orcs, with physiques like human bodybuilders, ridiculous armor and huge weapons (the uruks in the LOTR movies definitely had a slight case of this, and certain specimens from the hobbit movies far moreso)

I think a thing that all those big athletic maori stuntmen in prosthetics missed, for me, is that orcs as described by tolkien are supposed to be these bent, hobbiling, degraded creatures, which is always what encourages an ape-like interperatation of them in my mind, as if morgoth's genetic tampering had basically devolved the humanoid elves into these wretched creatures (not that the children of illuvatar evolved from apes in the first place, but it works visually, i think) they seem to be strong enough (the brutal strength of their arms and grasping hands is remarked upon repeatedly) and even kind of formidable, but nothing a trained knight or swordsman cant make short work of for the most part. yes gorillas were definitely on my mind for the black skinned uruks, i looked at alot of pictures of them standing on two legs, which is always really awkward looking in a similar way to how i imagine these guys standing and moving around, huge barreled-torsos outthurst and shoulders thrown back as far as they'll go, but still slightly canted forward at the hips.

Grishnakh was indeed taken in large part from old chimps; long muscular arms (remarked in the book to be really hairy) huge, clawed hands, really short legs, and (like many male chimps) he seems to have a real mean streak to him, I imagine he's maybe quite a bit older than the moria goblin and most of the uruks. The moria captain does seem very bonobo like standing beside him (i hadn't thought of that, but a really good comparrison ) these two are much closer to what an "orc" has historically been in middle-earth's long history, the uruks are a new creation, and though much bigger and heavier, are actually a little more human and less brutal in build, though none are really that tall, i would imagine; tolkien's pretty adamant that the very biggest orcs - usually with a good ammount of mannish blood in them - only get to about "man high" (5'8" maybe, not the numenorean "two rangar" or 6'4") i imagine a very tall man like aragorn or eomer (both 6'6") would probably stand close to a full head taller than ugluk here.

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-03-01 16:24:55 +0000 UTC]

Peter Jackson has said for the record that Lurtz was an invented enemy for Aragorn to fight as part of the cinematic-required big fight at the end of the FOTR movie. Naturally then he had to be a properly suitable foe!   If Lurtz were a "real" uruk he would be a near-anomalous ogre and would of course have a position of command among Orcs no matter where he was. Nathaniel Lees as Ugluk in the TTT film was a more likely representation of a "man-orc" in build and physical posture. He had the requisite bullying swagger and alpha male posturing down pat as well. The actor (whose name I forget) who played Gorbag in the ROTK movie was trying very much for a Mordor-orc after the fashion of the textual Grishnakh,

You did get the size dichotomy right in terms of build as well as height, as Tolkien depicts the more run-of-the-mill Orc for the North and Grishnakh as smaller than Ugluk. As a stage-fighter who will never see the other side of 5'9", let alone 6', taking on Ugluk and some of his burlier fellows would be like trading sword-strokes with the typical 5'11"-6' 2", 230-250 lb. NFL linebacker.  

 

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MoArtProductions In reply to Zeonista [2015-09-30 18:31:39 +0000 UTC]

I'd still say that the tallest and most powerful of the uruks might... might be 6 feet high if not taller, though as is Tolkien's writing is practically left for different people's interpretations of how his orcs may have looked or how tall they were.

In my case, in terms of the orcs of the Gundabad, they may have been the breed other than the uruks and possibly Moronon Orcs, with the largest at least 5'5-5'9, average human height, since they may have been much better fed and had better exercise than the common breeds like the Goblins or Sauron's orcs. Perhaps that's one reason why Azog (In PJ's films at least) may be so great and mighty as he's depicted, though at least by 6 feet in height.

But all in all, Turner's going places here with his interpretations of how Tolkien's orcs may be. Mind you I still "Kind'a" prefer the film's orcs as their are pretty accurate to the different breeds in their own way.

I'd like to try and combine the two interpretations, retaining the more athletic human-esque stature for the uruks, while still giving them an even more ape-like feel as turner does here.

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Zeonista In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-10-05 02:53:26 +0000 UTC]

I can go for the idea of a six-foot uruk myself, especially if he is the captain of chieftain using his cunning and his brawn to dominate his followers and turn them into an effective force. (By orcish standards anyway.) I always pictured the chieftain at the Chamber of Mazarbul as being a burly six-footer, but swift and agile as befits a veteran brawler and battler. I do suspect (with some encouragement from MERP) that Azog and Bolg were the result of early uruk-hai being deliberately sent from Dol Guldur to infiltrate the Orcs of the Mountains and take the posts of leadership, and then breed successive generations of mixed-blood leaders and officers to lift the general quality of the goblin-folk.

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MoArtProductions In reply to Zeonista [2015-10-05 02:57:53 +0000 UTC]

That's a novel concept.

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Zeonista In reply to MoArtProductions [2015-10-05 04:16:21 +0000 UTC]

It did make sense given the events of the Tale of Years. When Sauron as the Necromancer returned to Dol Guldur, some orders seem to have been given and plans set in motion.
TA 2475: The uruk-hai first make an appearance as a distinct force when groups of them issue overrun Ithilien from Mordor.
TA 2480: The orcs of the Misty Mountains act in unison to close all of the mountain passes. The passes are presumably opened again, but they remain dangerous for the next 30 years.
TA 2509: Celebrian wife of Elrond is taken prisoner after her party is ambushed on the Dimrill Pass.
TA 2510: An army of Orcs of the Mountains assists the Balchoth by flanking the army of Gondor under Cirion the Steward, preventing a retreat. The orc-host shares the defeat when the Eorlingas arrive, but the orcs' strength is not seriously checked.

Note that soon after the uruk-hai showed up as a superior raiding/fighting force of Mordor, the Orcs of the Mountains abruptly became aggressive and took effective action. They showed up to help the Balchoth at an opportune time, and that is not a coincidence! Azog himself didn't show up in any tales for nearly another 3 centuries, but the groundwork for a strong and effective leader capable of uniting the various tribes of the Mountains had been laid. Even Bolg could summon a large host of Orcs of the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains to assemble and march on Erebor largely unseen.


 

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MoArtProductions In reply to Zeonista [2015-10-06 04:40:50 +0000 UTC]

That's pretty much is the jest of it.

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2015-02-28 17:38:00 +0000 UTC]

 Although one fears that over the course of the Long Defeat cunning, numbers and sheer bloody-mindnedness have allowed orcs to kill whole armies of knights and rangers, Elves and Dwarves, along with more than a few cities.

 Orcs may be minions, but when they get an even (or better than even) chance they get the Job done; I suspect that a multitude in the Halls of Mandos can attest to that. 

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